Re: [xmca] Living metaphor and conventionalized language

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

I missed a lot of this interesting discussion at the time, David. Your
question at the end of the note is one I have puzzled about a lot. I often
puzzle over whether people are misunderstanding or disagreeing. Your way of
translating the issue into framing perhaps articulates a way to examine such
issues more usefully I have managed to do.
mike

On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 4:18 PM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:

> Martin,
> I was referring to the issue of internalization allegedly separating you
> and David Ke: namely that he embraces it (in a particular sense
> "referring not to a body but as to a nation, a country, a city, a
> community, a family...or some particle thereof"), whereas you find it
> problematic.
> Partly my question was aimed at understanding your positions better,
> partly it was intended as a meta-level probe of our variety of academic
> discourse: Do we ever disagree within a common frame, or do apparent
> disagreements always turn out to reflect incommensurable framings that
> we've adopted for the time being, though we can still see the sense in
> oppositional framings.
> David
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On Behalf Of Martin Packer
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 3:18 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Living metaphor and conventionalized language
>
> David,
>
> Are you asking about 'consciousness' and 'thought'? My reply would be
> the standard one: consciousness is the dynamic system of psychological
> functions (as well as being our relationship with the world); thinking
> is one of those functions.
>
> Was it pointless to ask?  :)
>
> Martin
>
> On Aug 12, 2011, at 3:54 PM, David H Kirshner wrote:
>
> > Are these different material processes, or different perspectives on
> > the same process, or is it pointless to ask?
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Martin Packer
> > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 1:08 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Living metaphor and conventionalized language
> >
> > Larry, David...
> >
> > I don't like the word "internalization" because I can't see that
> > anything internal is involved! As LSV put it:
> >
> > "Consciousness does not occur as a specific category, as a specific
> > mode of being. It proves to be a very complex structure of behaviour"
> >
> > David Bakhurst describes well the 'radical realism' those guys were
> > developing:
> >
> > "Thought is conceived not as a barrier or interface between the self
> > and the world beyond the mind, but as the means by which the
> > individual enters into immediate cognitive contact with the material
> world.
> > Thought, the mode of activity of the socially defined subject, reaches
>
> > right out to reality itself" (1991, p. 261)
> >
> > If the "inner" is out there in the "outer," we've got the metaphors
> > wrong, IMHO.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > On Aug 11, 2011, at 12:27 AM, David Kellogg wrote:
> >
> >> Of course, BOTH "internalization" and "appropriation" are metaphors.
> >> I
> > don't flee from the "internalization" metaphor the way that Martin
> > does, partly because I think of it as referring not to a body but as
> > to a nation, a country, a city, a community, a family...or some
> > particle thereof. In this sense (a sense which I suppose is better
> > captured by "interiorization" than by "internalization", just as
> > "reflection" is better captured by "refraction") there is no duality;
> > when you move from one nation to another you do not change worlds, nor
>
> > do you change nations when you move from one city to another.
> >>
> >
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