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probably nothing much, Andy. I have a family fest at my house as of this noon and will be extra flakey for a week. mike On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote: > I always enjoy these kind of observations, Mike, but I still don't know > what perception of made-up objects in the laboratory has to do with > abstract and concrete. I would be very grateful if you could share that > with us Mike, > > Andy > > mike cole wrote: > >> Thanks for the extra connections, Peg. I'll track them down and perhaps >> we can return to Sayeki's work if people find it useful. >> >> mike >> >> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Peg Griffin <peg.griffin@att.net<mailto: >> peg.griffin@att.net>> wrote: >> >> There are some recent studies of PM (physical manipulation) and CM >> (computer manipulation) and IM (imaginary manipulation) that might >> be interesting to consider here, Mike and Andy ( more the studies >> themselves than the framework/background that motivate them.) >> Here's the general issue and some references: >> Kids who read sometimes don't comprehend. Telling them to >> visualize or imagine (IM) as a comprehension >> strategy is like telling a sad person to be happy. They don't >> really see what it means to go about that. >> But, if they learn to do PM or CM while reading some passages and >> then are advised to do the same but without the physical objects >> or the interactive computer objects (so it is IM), they can then >> do the IM and even do it on new passages they never did any PM or >> CM on. It works on narrative and expository passages. >> Glenberg, A.M., Goldberg, A. B. & Zhu, X. (2011) Improving early >> reading comprehension using embodied CAI. Instructional Sciences, >> 39(1), 27–39. >> Glenberg, A.M., Willford, J., Gibson, B., Goldberg, A. B. & Zhu, >> X. (2011). Improving reading to improve math. Scientific Studies >> of Reading. DOI: 10.1080/10888438.2011.564245 >> Glenberg, A.M., Sato, M. & Cattaneo, L. (2011). Use-induced >> motor plasticity affects the processing of abstract and concrete >> language. Current Biology, 18(7), R290-291 >> It's reminiscent of our marshmallow simulations of those >> genetically primary Pond problems, huh, Mike? >> And here is one older piece along the same lines that might be >> interesting to look at – the abstract starts this way: “This >> article explores the nature of the conceptual knowledge retrieved >> when people use words to think about objects. Suppose that >> conceptual knowledge is used to simulate and guide action in the >> world.” >> Borghi, A. M., Glenberg, A. M. &. Kaschak, M. P. (2004). Putting >> words in perspective. Memory and Cognition. 32 (6), 863-873Peg >> >> --- On Wed, 8/15/12, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> >> From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> >> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] "Rising to the concrete" >> To: lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com> >> >> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> >> >> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2012, 9:21 PM >> >> >> >> As I see it Mike, the reason that a set-up which facilitates the >> subject imaginatively putting themselves into the object, leads to >> quicker solution of the problem because it mobilises the highly >> developed sense we have of our own body. Although wrong about much >> else, I think Lakoff was right about the central place of spatial >> and other visceral metaphors lying at the root of our ability to >> understand things, including concept formation and the formation >> of language. Likewise, I think the whole range of social feelings >> we have - shame, fear of disapproval, desire for recognition, >> respect for norms of behaviour, etc., as well as knowledge of the >> various objects which populate our social world, key in our >> understanding of concepts which have an essentially social >> existence. Just as my feet and shoulders twitch when I watch a >> tennis match, I think similar but deeper processes are going on >> when I recognise or think about things which are conceptualised in a >> particular way in the social environment I am in. If this is the >> kind of thing you have in mind, then I believe I understand you. >> The same considerations also engage the concepts of abstract and >> concrete, but you seemed to be hinting at a more immediate >> connection which at the moment is just escaping me. >> >> Perhaps you could explain? >> >> Andy >> >> mike cole wrote: >> Thanks for posting the link to the paper, Andy. >> >> I believe that a starting point is to ask the following question(s): >> >> >> 1. What is it that accounts for the increase in time to carry out >> a mental rotation for the plain >> conglomeration of blocks? >> >> >> 2. Whatever the process is, why is it that the amount of rotation >> is irrelevant if the figure has >> a schematic face/head on it in a place where it appears person-like? >> >> >> Maybe all the concrete is between my ears. >> mike >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/**ap81v3n2.PDF<http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ap81v3n2.PDF>p.16 >> >> Mike, I also, at first had the same problem with motorscooter >> indicator, and I used a different but similar tactic to overcome >> it. Also, as a civil engineer I learnt that it was essential to >> imagine yourself as the building in order to nknow where the >> stresses would be and effectively design it, and most difficult >> problems, up to the point of calculations could be solved this way. >> >> But ... :) ... I can't see what this has to do with abstract and >> concrete. Can you explain? >> >> >> Andy >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> A wonderful paper by Yutaka Sayeki (with two key figures reversed, >> but it is obvious where the mistake was made when you read it) has >> an example of what I take to be almost a "measure" of rising to >> the concrete (see also Davydov's ideas on the topic). >> >> Its part of a special issue of the newsletter. Accessible to >> anyone at lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu> >> >> >> * >> >> Volume 3, Number 2 April 1981 >> >> * >> >> AZUMA, Hiroshi: /A Note on Cross-Cultural Study/ >> >> INAGAKI, Kayoko: /Facilitation of Knowledge Integration through / >> >> /Classroom Discussion/ >> >> KASHIWAGI, Keiko: /Note on the Socialization Processes in Japan/ >> >> HATANO, Giyoo, KUHARA, Keiko, and AKIYAMA, Michael: /Kanji Help / >> >> /Readers of Japanese Infer the Meaning of Unfamiliar Words/ >> >> SAITO, Hirofumi/: Toward Comparative Studies in Reading Kanji and / >> >> /Kana/ >> >> SAYEKI, Yutaka: /"Body Analogy" and the Cognition of Rotated Figures/ >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Huw Lloyd >> <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.**com<huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >> > >> <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.**com <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >> >> <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.**com <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>>>> >> wrote: >> >> On 15 August 2012 13:01, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote: >> >> > Well, these issues are not going to be solved in 5 minutes, Huw. >> Analog >> > and digital belong to a completely different frame than the >> concepts of >> > abstract/concrete and general/universal which I think Greg asked >> about >> > initially. >> > >> >> Analog was an elaboration. This point is not necessary to resolve >> "universal" in the Lenin quote. >> >> Huw >> >> >> > >> > Let me be brief then. Ilyenkov famously makes the point that >> (exchange) >> > value is an ideal, but it is also real. The market implements a >> process of >> > abstracting the value of commodities but it is the very >> concreteness of the >> > market which makes that process possible. >> >> Democracy is an ideal which really motivates millions of >> people and >> > underpins constitutional governments. >> > >> >> > Universal suffrage allows that insane people, criminals and >> children do >> > not vote. And what is more, when the President is elected, only >> the votes >> > of 51% count. (There are of course plenty of "Ah, but ..."s >> about this, but >> > this is what is meant by the difference between the general >> and the >> > universal.) >> > >> > http://www.marxists.org/****reference/archive/hegel/works/****<http://www.marxists.org/**reference/archive/hegel/works/**> >> > >> sl/slsubjec.htm#SL163n1b<http:**//www.marxists.org/reference/* >> *archive/hegel/works/sl/**slsubjec.htm#SL163n1b<http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sl/slsubjec.htm#SL163n1b> >> > >> > >> > Andy >> > >> > >> ______________________________**____________ >> _____ >> xmca mailing list >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> >> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >> >> >> >> -- >> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ >> **> >> >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts >> >> ______________________________**____________ >> _____ >> xmca mailing list >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ >> **> >> >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >> ______________________________**____________ >> _____ >> xmca mailing list >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >> ______________________________**____________ >> _____ >> xmca mailing list >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >> >> >> > -- > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > ------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts > > ______________________________**____________ > _____ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> > __________________________________________ _____ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca