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These files are maintained strictly for historical reference, research, and recordkeeping purposes,
and the content has not been altered or updated since archiving.
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well we are sure agreed about the context dependent part. I arrue for different principles of change in what Huw refers to as sociogenesis and I refer to as cultural-historical genesis. I am just real uncertai about how to characterize more micro levels of development/context/historical..... change. Wertsch's paper is one of several treatments of the topic, the only one I could put my bytes on quickly and as a followup to Vera's suggestion. There are other papers with other examples. But first, what about what we have?? mike On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 8:51 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote: > ** > I will read the Wertsch puzzle, Mike. It is good to see (I think) that we > are getting closer to the same page at last. I have reservations about > seeking a context-independent meaning for "development" which does not > constantly refer back to achievement of adult self-determination qua > citizenship, which, as it happens, can be quite safely taken for granted in > the case of elementary school children learning to read. Could I just > mention, on the off-chance that it may be useful, the allusion I made to > the Hegelian concept of "illusory." This means that a concept (form of > activity within a situation) may appear, but then may turn out to be > "illusory," a flash in the pan, so to speak. This is kind of the other side > of "development." It does not provide something which can be built upon. > > I turn to my reading for today ... > Andy > > > mike cole wrote: > > I believe you are correct, Andy, it is indeed a germ cell approach to the > acquisition of reading where "the whole task of reading" is present as an > interactional "force field" within the setting. Precisely for this reason > reading is not reduced to decoding, but no serious literacy scholar does. > The big trick as the matter is usually formulated is that you first get > the decoding right and then when it is automated or as it is automated, > reading as comprending/interpreting the world emerges. That is sort of the > Jean Chall approach, which should not be dismissed although I disagree with > it; she was a very experienced, smart, scholar. But the problem with > treating things in this level 1-level 2, lower-higher, order in organizing > acquistion is that you are missing the "structure of the whole" at the > beginning, reducing, too often, acquistion of reading to stimulus-response > learning -- which in the cases of acquiring English literacy can be a > challenge, ours being a mongrel language. > > But all of this speaks to the question of what is meant by development > in this entire line of discourse. Generality of a conceptual change is > certainly an aspect of what is meant, along with generality of how one is > treated by others. But always and again, at what scale? In relation to what > other scales? > > I am attaching an early Jim Wertsch paper that illustrates clearly the > puzzle experimental procedure and how he and colleagues wrote about > it early on. It is the kind of study Vera was referring to. I attach it as > a means of making it possible to establish joint reference for those among > us who are unfamiliar with the evidence being rererred to. > > mike > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote: > >> OK, I get what you want to discuss, Mike. I guess you posed the question >> in terms of learning vs development in response to criticism posed in those >> terms, but the whole controversy seems to function as a destraction >> (Freudian typing mistake), doesn't it? Given all the caveats I so heavily >> laboured in my contributions, there is really no problem with learning >> which is taking place within the ZPD being called "microgenesis." The >> momentary formation of an action which lies *outside *the ZPD is not >> developmental for the child, so the situation is "illusory" (to use a >> Hegelian term), so it makes sense to restrict the term "microgenesis" to >> formation of actions-within-a-situation which child-and-carers can and can >> only manage with the carers assisting the child, and the child cannot yet >> manage alone. It is certainly obvious that ontogenetic development cannot >> happen without such accomplishments. >> >> Going to your PS, David tells us that Vygotsky got the one-step-two-step >> quip from Koffka. It ties up with Vera's observation about "generalisation" >> of a new achievement, doesn't it. I guess that does not happen instantly. >> >> I would like to see you pursue the idea that Davydov's (and Vygotsky and >> Marx and Hegel and Goethe's) idea of "germ cell" contains the germ of the >> question you want answered here. I am a little torn by the proposition >> because, on the one hand, I am drawn back to learning-perspectives which >> have a whole subject matter in mind (e.g. comparing objects as the germ >> cell for mathematical reasoning) and a conception of the germ cell which is >> not just a reified object *or* an isolated action, but self-consciously >> references a *situation. *But those two takes on the idea don't really >> conflict, do they? That what was so impressive about the paper you shared: >> the team went to the whole situation to redefine the problem of reading, >> not just print, but "the world." >> >> I would like to hear your thoughts about this question. Wasn't the idea >> of reading being "*expanding* the ability to mediate one's interactions >> with the environment by interpreting text" the germ cell (if only it could >> be formulated as such) of Question Asking Reading? Isn't there a germ cell >> of microgenesis somewhere in there? >> >> Andy >> >> > > __________________________________________ > _____ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > __________________________________________ _____ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca