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Andy-- I am concerned, among other things, with the question of whether and under what conditions it is useful to make a distinction between learning and development and in particular whether, at the temporal scale of events that involve teaching/learning a form of change those adopting a Vygotskian view would designate as development is possible. If not, then I suggest that the notion of zone of proximal development is a non-starter. Criticizing those who mistake a zone of proximal development from a zone of proximal learning seems somehow irrelevant unless development can be said to occur in teaching/learning interactions. mike mike On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 7:09 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote: > I think, Mike, that what you are concerned with is the study of situations > and the permanency of changes in functioning wrought by the situations > created by instruction. Yes? > > Andy > > mike cole wrote: > >> Yes, all of that seems perfectly likely. But in so far as the children >> actually engage with visual/motion/sound simulations that the buttons >> produce, might they become involved in a process of meaning making that >> could >> have, as one of its outcomes, the ability to read this message? >> >> I really think we have no idea. The idea that the kind of literacy >> embodied >> in this message could disappear and be replaced by some other, "more >> adaptive" semiotic system is at least wrong and perhaps dangerous. >> But we are seeing all sorts of hybridity arise. >> >> This brings us back to the role of INSTRUCTION (Obuchenie) in the >> acquisition of the ability to read and write an alphabetic language. We >> know that the process ordinarily begins near, or around, the major >> bio-social-behavioral shift associated with losing front teeth. Up to now >> such instruction comes in packages called "classes" and in those classroom >> events, face to face, paper and pencil and chalk in hand, And there, a >> microgenetic process of change-in-interaction occurs. >> >> People seem pretty well agreed that something important changes between >> the >> ages of 5-7 (roughly) around the world, except in cases of extreme lack of >> normal environmental support. That counts as development. >> >> So I have been trying to focus down on the level of what happens in those >> events with respect to the process of obuchenie, teaching/learning. At >> this >> level, which seems to encompass the temporal scale of microgeneis, is >> there >> change we would also call develoment, or not. >> >> If not, then it seems to me that the notion of a Zone of Proximal >> Development is an oxymoron. >> >> I believe that Werner had a way of trying to resolve this problem that Joe >> has tried to educate us in. I am unsure of its application, say, to the >> process of acquiring an alphabetic written language. Would it change our >> modes of instruction? My guess is yes, but I am not sure how. >> >> Anyway, its interesting to observe how the young appropriate the artifacts >> we encompass them in. That process might also be thought about with >> respect >> to obuchnie. >> mike >> >> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Bill Kerr <billkerr@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >>> I've heard similar anecdotes, Helen, about the fate of xos in remote >>> indigenous Australia >>> >>> There have been various sophisticated arguments about new media replacing >>> old media (Seymour Papert and others). I recall an article by Papert >>> titled >>> "Literacy and Letteracy in the Media Ages". Also similar work by James >>> Gee >>> about semiotic domains and video games. I was once an enthusiast about >>> this. In practice it is only a real consideration for middle class kids >>> who >>> have been taught to read and write before they get to school by their >>> caring parents. >>> >>> Once you actually work with disadvantaged kids who can't read, write, >>> subtract and have never heard of "divide" (and they are 15 years old) >>> then >>> the mindset changes about what is needed. >>> >>> Then we have some academics who love to play with technology and do >>> education in a way that *they* find interesting and engaging. Then if we >>> can present an argument that this *also* is an efficient way of teaching >>> the *basics* (3 Rs) to kids who don't have them then not only can we have >>> fun in the things that interest us but also pretend that we are >>> liberating >>> the wretched of the earth. >>> >>> Negroponte says in the original article: >>> >>> In an interview after his talk, Negroponte said that while the early >>> results are promising, reaching conclusions about whether children could >>> learn to read this way would require more time. “If it gets funded, it >>> would need to continue for another a year and a half to two years to come >>> to a conclusion that the scientific community would accept,” Negroponte >>> said. “We’d have to start with a new village and make a clean start.” >>> >>> >>> Don't hold your breath. That won't happen. The real discussion should >>> focus >>> on the most effective ways of teaching kids who don't have the 3Rs about >>> how to acquire them. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 9:49 AM, Helen Harper <helen.harper@bigpond.com >>> >>> >>>> wrote: >>>> What language are the activities on the tablet in? It wasn't made >>>> >>>> >>> explicit >>> >>> >>>> in the article, and the implication seemed to be that the script was >>>> >>>> >>> Roman >>> >>> >>>> script with English words. It's a bit odd to claim children are learning >>>> literacy in a language they presumably don't speak, in a script which >>>> >>>> >>> isn't >>> >>> >>>> the script for the language they do speak, surely? >>>> >>>> As for the XOs - arrrrgggh! A few Aboriginal schools I've visited >>>> >>>> >>> recently >>> >>> >>>> in north Australia have them and there's not a lot of enthusiasm for >>>> >>>> >>> them - >>> >>> >>>> from either teachers of kids. Mostly they don't get used. Those useless >>>> green things, people call them. But maybe this is unfair. We're a rich >>>> country and everyone's seen iPads (and lots of schools have found >>>> funding >>>> to get iPads too). Who would want an XO when you could have the 'real >>>> thing'? Think horse and buggy versus air conditioned 4 wheel drive. >>>> >>>> In fact, using iPads is sometimes a default successful classroom >>>> activity >>>> with kids who don't engage well with schooling generally, I've observed. >>>> All kids can play around with the cameras and funny fonts and we can say >>>> we're doing 'multiliteracies'. Having said that, I've also seen some >>>> stunning classroom work using iPad apps that draw very low-literate kids >>>> >>>> >>> in >>> >>> >>>> to use rich language, print and images to create beautiful texts that >>>> are >>>> also meaningful. But this work is always mediated in a very purposeful >>>> >>>> >>> way >>> >>> >>>> by a highly literate person, at least in the early stages, from my >>>> observations. >>>> >>>> Helen >>>> >>>> >>>> On 02/11/2012, at 1:34 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com> >>>> >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Mike, >>>>> It would great if we could do on the spot research of this situation as >>>>> well as the hole in the wall context. What precisely is the tablet >>>>> mediating? >>>>> Carol >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 31 October 2012 18:13, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Interesting story, Peter. >>>>>> >>>>>> I found it interesting that the "learn to read" precedes "reading to >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> learn" >>>> >>>> >>>>> formula used in the article. >>>>>> >>>>>> Not at all clear that a print-literacy notion of what reading is and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> what >>>> >>>> >>>>> the ordering of sense making through graphic symbols and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> representations is >>>> >>>> >>>>> appropriate for what people hope is going on there. >>>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 5:52 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> http://mashable.com/2012/10/**29/tablets-ethiopian-children/<http://mashable.com/2012/10/29/tablets-ethiopian-children/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ______________________________**____________ >>>>>>> _____ >>>>>>> xmca mailing list >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________**____________ >>>>>> _____ >>>>>> xmca mailing list >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Sessional Teacher: Wits School of Languages >>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>>>> ______________________________**____________ >>>>> _____ >>>>> xmca mailing list >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ______________________________**____________ >>>> _____ >>>> xmca mailing list >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ______________________________**____________ >>> _____ >>> xmca mailing list >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >>> >>> >>> >> ______________________________**____________ >> _____ >> xmca mailing list >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >> >> >> >> > > -- > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > ------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts > http://ucsd.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://ucsd.academia.edu/AndyBlunden> > > __________________________________________ _____ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca