XMCA Mail 2001_03: Re: other voices

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Re: other voices

I like the way this dialogue on "other voices" versus "grand narrative"
"sociocultural" versus "sociohistorical" has developed. I prefer
"socio-historical" to "socio-cultural" with respect to the academy because
we need to look who historically has been part of the academy and who has
been excluded

--I will not be able to be in Seattle this year but hope to join next year
in New Orleans. From an immigrants/foreigners/TESOL/bilingual education
point of view I would pose "what does sociocultural" versus
"socioHistorical" offer TESOL/BE teachers and students re voice and agency?
Historical offers a more political and sociology of education --knowledge
for whom--(history of exclusion--how to expand opportunities for minority
recruitment--those many voices who have been excluded from the academy.)

Good question. In my view, from the way how you asked the question, you
raise it within a sociocultural (with "critical-historical flavor" nicely
defined recently by Diane) rather than cultural-historical (aka Vygotsky)
tradition. I'm not a specialist in TESOL/BE (I'm just one of practicing BL
in US :-) but let me try to rephrase your question to fit the
cultural-historical approach. It will sound something like that, "What are
historically most progressive/advanced mediational BE tools for students to
become self-regulated in using a second language?" This inquiry will lead
probably to a historical analysis of mediational BE tools starting from most
primitive/everyday/traditional to most advanced which probably will be
defined as schooled/scientific. At the end of this analysis, perhaps an
innovative school-based BE program will be proposed.

I hope I'm not caricaturing the cultural-historical approach too much. As
one of my good Ukrainian colleague remarked after reading this discussion,
"Eugene, you have become completely Americanized." So watch me! :-)

  At 06:10 PM 3/29/01 -0000, lclynch@indiana.edu wrote:
>The ONE GRAND theory approach and promoting dialogue approach is an
>interesting distinction. I never saw it that way, but makes sense.
>There obviously is not a right or wrong approach between the two, but
>I'd like to see then between the two approaches what do we agree on?
>Where do we diverge? Are the historical and cultural aspects of the
>Vygotskian school in a linear relationship on a scale? Do we see
>varying degrees of history orientedness or culture orientedness in
>recent sociocultural research, and if so what does that mean?
>
>I do appreciate the American Vygotskian school's effort in
>identifying relationships among cultures, and that has been the focus
>of my research for the last couple of years. However, there are times
>that I do question myself "what more are we doing than describing a
>cultural phenomenon using academic vocabulary?" If we can't answer
>that, then I think that we will be estranging ourselves even further
>from the non-academic world. Which is ironic, because the nature of
>sociocultural research is to divulge in research of everyday activity
>in the natural setting....
>
>Lisa Y-L
>
>--- In ch-sig who-is-at y..., "Eugene Matusov" <ematusov@u...> wrote:
>> Hi Mike and Lisa--
>>
>> In my view, one of major issues separating Russian Vygotskian
>school and US
>> Vygotskian school is the issue of diversity. Russian Vygtoskian
>school (or
>> better to say a family of approaches) exemplified nicely by
>Davydov's
>> statement about one right way for cognitive development believes
>that there
>> is one truth, one historical development of society, one direction
>of
>> progress, one Grand Theory of development (in the Hegel-Marx-
>Vygotsky
>> tradition). Russian Vygotskian school focuses on defining and
>promoting THE
>> progress.
>>
>> US Vygotskian school (or better to say a family of approaches)
>rejects the
>> Hegel-Marx-Vygotsky idea of one historical development of society
>and focus,
>> instead, on relations among cultures. US Vygotskian school focuses
>on
>> promoting dialogue (cf. Bakhtin), participation, and access to
>practices and
>> institutions. That is why, in my view, Jim Wetrsch insists on the
>term
>> "sociocultural" rather than "socio-historical" as Vygotsky used.
>Russian
>> Vygotskian school is much closer to Vygotsky, of course (remember
>> Luria-Vygotsky x-cultural studies of "primitive" Uzbeks?).
>>
>> I wonder how can US sociocultrual approach guide us to promote
>necessary
>> transformations of the academia insitutionsto make it open and more
>> comfotable for participation of "others" (not middle- and upper-
>class white
>> males)?
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Eugene
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <lclynch who-is-at i...>
>> To: <ch-sig who-is-at y...>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 8:48 AM
>> Subject: [ch-sig] Re: other voices
>>
>>
>> > This sounds very interesting. It is my understanding that one of
>> > Vygotsky's original intention was to develop a unified
>psychology. I
>> > am unsure if the post-Vygotskian Russian and Western scholars
>> > undertook this task after him, or by developing their theoretical
>> > framework further isolated themsevles from the other schools of
>> > psychology. Additionally, it would be interesting to identify how
>we
>> > related to our allies. I think that this type of effort may
>> > clarify/simplify the stereotypical complexity that is associated
>to
>> > sociocultural/sociohistorical psychology.
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------
>> > Lisa C. Yamagata-Lynch
>> > Doctoral Candidate in Educational Psychology and
>> > Instructional Systems Technology
>> > Indiana University, Bloomington
>> > lclynch who-is-at i...
>> > http://php.indiana.edu/~lclynch
>> > -------------------------------------------------
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mike Cole" <mcole who-is-at w...>
>> To: <ematusov who-is-at U...>
>> Cc: <ch-sig who-is-at y...>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 12:03 AM
>> Subject: RE: other voices
>>
>>
>> > Hi Eugene-- We seem to be on the same wavelength. And there is a
>really
>> > interesting paradox/puzzle here. In the US, we can, as you point
>out,
>> > really push for other voices, with diversity designated along a
>lot of
>> > dimensions: class, gender, ethnicity, etc.
>> >
>> > but what about the parallel traditions in the form Soviet Union?
>We hear
>> > a little from a few Georgians, a few Armenians, a few Estonians,
>but
>> > Vasilii Davydov scandalized LCHC by his insistence on the one
>right way
>> > to cognitive development and we hear little from the many many
>ethnicities
>> > of Russia and Eastern Europe.
>> >
>> > right now I am hoping to be able to cooperate with Finnish
>colleagues who
>> > have an natural historical interest in interactions with the
>people of
>> Karelia.
>> >
>> > What about the volga germans? The Jews stranded in the paradise of
>> Beribezhan?
>> > etc?
>> >
>> > It could make for a fascinating meeting.
>> > mike
>> > ,.
>> --------------------
>> >
>> > --- In ch-sig who-is-at y..., "Eugene Matusov" <ematusov@u...> wrote:
>> > > Thanks, Mike, for the interesting suggestion. Maybe it is a good
>> > idea to
>> > > think whom we can invite.
>> > >
>> > > I also have a nostalgia for one of our first business meetings
>(in
>> > San
>> > > Francisco, I guess) when we had a debate on sociocultural/CHAT
>> > views on
>> > > education and its problems.
>> > >
>> > > Also, I was thinking that it will be nice to invite our allies
>like
>> > social
>> > > constructionists, Deweyians, feminists, and so on and have
>> > discussion
>> > > exploring similarities and differences among this family of
>> > approaches...
>> > >
>> > > Another topic that is dear to me is US academia for women,
>people
>> > of color,
>> > > immigrants, and foreigners (the groups are not mutually
>exclusive
>> > of course
>> > > :-). It is not a top military secret that US academia has been
>> > historically
>> > > designed to fit white middle- and upper-class males. Also, US
>> > economic and
>> > > political domination in the world makes US academia almost the
>> > academia. It
>> > > is interesting to explore how "others" feel, think, and live in
>> > that regime,
>> > > what problems "they" have and that "our" place in addressing the
>> > problems.
>> > >
>> > > Any other ideas? What do you think?
>> > >
>> > > Eugene
>> > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: Mike Cole [mailto:mcole who-is-at w...]
>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 12:28 PM
>> > > > To: xmca who-is-at w...
>> > > > Subject: other voices
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Eugene-- I will not be able to make it to Seattle, but
>hopefully
>> > will
>> > > > be able to make it to New Orleans next year. In any event, I
>> > think that
>> > > > an interesting theme would be something like "other voices."
>By
>> > this I
>> > > > mean, cultural-historical theorists who have contributed to
>the
>> > > > development
>> > > > of educational theory who have not figured prominently in
>most of
>> > the
>> > > > discussions I have seen.
>> > > >
>> > > > Bill B's note on Elkonin, who ought be better known than he is
>> > sparked
>> > > > this idea, but there are lots of younger people from Eastern
>> > Europe
>> > > > who might be involved and I would not restrict the list to
>> > the "eastern"
>> > > > tradition, but think about possibilities from other parts of
>the
>> > world
>> > > > as well.
>> > > > mike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> > ch-sig-unsubscribe who-is-at y...
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>
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