Re: [xmca] BIRTHDAY

Dear Mike,

Happy Birthday!

My very best wishes,

Katerina :-)

On Sun, April 13, 2008 11:34, Alexander Surmava wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> many, many, many happy returns of the Day :-), :-), :-), :-), :-), :-)
> Sasha
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Mike Cole
> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 9:25 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Karpov's Book
>
> Coming again to issues of cultural difference and all these related
> notions
> 70+ years after
> Levy Bruhl, Vygotsky, and Luria were writing, 30/40 years after the post-
> WWII burst of
> cross-cultural research, and in the frenzied concern over
> hyper-globalization and global warming
> might be timely, David.
>
> The contradictions emerging in recent research and theory (the current
> thread about LSV and
> primitive thought, Everett vs Chomsky and whoever on Pidiha language and
> thought, the claims
> made about various "new literacies" are pretty mind bending.
>
> Ignacio- I think a used copy on amazon is most likely the only way to get
> a
> relatively cheap version
> of the Karpov book using the internet.
>
> Martin-- I think David was referring to Karpov's characterization of the
> Uzbeki work, not LSV's but the
> two were both in the message. Keeping straight who said what is a chore!
> mike
>
> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 7:17 AM, ignacio dalton <iedalton@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> hi david, mike, and all
>> seems interesting to learn more about this book.
>> is there any chance to get it on internet ?
>> ignacio dalton
>>
>> David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Sorry, Mike--
>>
>> I know, that last posting had all the complexity of Sun Wukong wandering
>> through the garden of the Emperor of Heaven. I did indeed set out to
> comment
>> on Karpov, but I got distracted by Eugene's golden peaches.
>>
>> Yes, Karpov has the worst of both of the worlds Eugene describes as
>> "cultural historical" and "sociocultural". On the one hand, he thinks
>> the
>> Stalinists correctly characterized LSV's position on the Uzbek
>> peasantry,
>> and on the other he appears to think that this is a pretty fair view of
> the
>> cognitive abilities of the Uzbeks. I think LSV's real position was
>> anticipating the emergence of a new culture and not applauding the
>> imposition of a "Western" one.
>>
>> Other problems with the Karpov book (The Neo-Vygotskyan Approach to
>> Child
>> Development):
>>
>> a) A recapitulationist view of the relationship between cultural history
>> and ontogeny (p. 19)
>>
>> b) The claim that children acquire language 'only if adults "don't
>> understand" nonverbal means of communciation that children try to use in
> the
>> context of their object-centred joint activity and encourge children to
> use
>> words." (p. 129). What possible evidence for such an assertion could
>> ever
>> exist? None!
>>
>> c) The belief that object substitutions are also handed down from parent
>> to child (e.g. the child riding a stick will think it is a stick until
>> it
> is
>> called a horse by an adult). Again, it's hard to imagine what could be
>> construed as evidence for this. The evidence given does not go very far:
> an
>> adult asks a child what he is cooking and the child answers, truthfully,
>> sticks and rocks. (p. 133)
>>
>> d) "Human progress, in general, occurs when every new generation
>> appropriates the essence of knowledge accumulated by previous
> generations."
>> (p. 185) This is a novel form of Zeno's paradox; it seems to rule out
>> the
>> possibility of human progress in principle.
>>
>> e) No crisis. None! Even the adolescent crisis is brought on by the
>> intransigence of parents (p. 212).
>>
>> f) The attempt to integrate the genetically based notion of IQ advocated
>> by Arthur Jensen with Vygotskyan thinking about cognitive development
>> (pp.
>> 236-238).
>>
>> All of these points seem to add up to a very CONSERVATIVE view of
>> development; one that is based on a model of cognitive development not
>> far
>> from cultural reproduction, and cultural reproduction curiously close to
>> biological reproduction, a mysterious process that adults do and
>> children
>> undergo. When you transpose that picture to the "development" of Central
>> Asia, it's not pretty. But for that very reason, I don't think that's
>> what
>> LSV or ARL could have had in mind.
>>
>> And here I must confess an interest. I currently have two young Uzbek
>> students, the sort of young people whose enculturation Luria might have
> been
>> looking forward to (one Muslim and one of Korean heritage). I am finding
>> them both kaleidoscopically enculturated, given to surprising
> juxtapositions
>> of language and ideas at almost every turn of a conversation, and I
> wouldn't
>> exactly characterize any of them as "Western".
>>
>> David Kellogg
>> Seoul National University of Education
>>
>>
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-- 
Katarina A. Rodina,
PhD-Research Fellow/Logoped,MNLL
Department of Special Needs Education
University of Oslo
P.O.Box 1140 Blindern,NO-0318 Oslo, Norway
Phone: +47 22 85 81 38/Fax:  +47 22 85 80 21
E-mail: katarina.rodina@isp.uio.no
http://staffdirectory.uv.uio.no/singleview/v1/index.php?user=katja
Head of Russo-Norwegian Academic Relations,
The Vygotsky Institute of Psychology, Moscow
The Herzen State University in St.Petersburg
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