Re: [xmca] What Does the Russian Say?

Access to the Russian originals from which the various translators
were working would be helpful..
perhaps the real Russian knowers will send along for discussion.
mike

On 9/19/08, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Terribly sorry, Russophiles! That went off by accident. Here's what I MEANT
> to ask:
> Our study group here in Seoul is trying to create a new Korean translation
> of
> "Thinking and Speech". We're VERY weak in Russian so we're
> trying to get at the original by comparing translations, especially Norman
> Minick's "Thinking and Speech" and Luciano Mecacci's
> "Pensiero e Linguaggio".
>
> And that's the problem. At the beginning of Chapter Two, Minick's got
> this:
>
> "The research of Jean Piaget represents a new stage in the devleopment of
> theory concerning the speech and thinking of the child; a news stage in the
> development of theory concerning the child's logic andworld view. His work
> is of substantial historical significance.Beginning with a new persepctive
> on
> the problem, and using the clinical method he developed, Piaget ahs carried
> out
> profoundly insightful investigations of the child's logic. Piaget himself,
> in concluding the second of his works, clearly and precisely noted the
> significance of his approach in the study of this old problem.
> "While Piaget's studies have created new directions..."
>
> Now, here's what Maccaci's got:
>
> "The research of Jean Piaget represents a new stage in the devleopment of
> theory concerning the speech and thinking of the child; a news stage in the
> development of theory concerning the child's logic andworld view. His work
> is of substantial historical significance.Beginning with a new persepctive
> on
> the problem, and using the clinical method he developed, Piaget ahs carried
> out
> profoundly insightful investigations of the child's logic. Piaget himself,
> in concluding the second of his works, clearly and precisely noted the
> significance of his approach in the study of this old problem.
>
> Piaget himself, in concluding the second of his workers (i.e. "Reasoning and
> Judgement of the Child" says this: "We therefore believe—and we affirm—that
> one day we shall be able to put the thought of the child on the same plane
> as the thought of a normal, civilized adult, the thought of the primitive
> mentality defined by Levy Bruhl, the autistic and symbolic thought of Freud
> and his followers, and the "morbid consciousness" of Charles Blondel." (p.
> 408). In reality, this first work (i.e. "Language and Thought of the
> Child"), for its historical significance for the development of the hidden
> side of psychological thought, must be placed alongside and compared with
> "Mental functioning in inferior societies" by Levy-Bruhl, "The
> interpretation of dreams" by Freud, and "The morbid conscience" by Blondel.
> Moreover, we observe between these findings in various fields of scientific
> psychology not only an external likeness,
> determined by their level of historical significance, but a profound and
> intimate internal affinity, a common essence in the philosophical and
> psychological tendencies that they contain and embody. Not without reason
> does Piaget apologize in an exaggerated manner for the research and theories
> of these three works and their authors."
>
> "While Piaget's studies have created new directions..."
>
>
> Apparently those words of Vygotsky's in the middle have never appeared in
> English. But you can see there's a BIG hunk missing,and that the cut does
> not at all improve the text: in fact it makes the first part of the text
> much more pro-Piagetian than Vygotsky meant.
>
> What's going on? Does anyone know why this was cut in the 1956 edition and
> the 1982 edition?
>
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of Education
>
>
>
> Dear xmca Russophones:
>
>
> But here's Mecacci (I'm translating roughly from the Italian):
>
> Piaget himself, in concluding the second of his workers (i.e. "Reasoning
> and Judgement of the Child" says this: "We therefore believe—and we
> affirm—that one day we shall be able to put the thought of the child on the
> same plane as the thought of a normal, civilized adult, the thought of the
> primitive mentality defined by Levy Bruhl, the autistic and symbolic thought
> of Freud and his followers, and the "morbid consciousness" of Charles
> Blondel." (p. 408). In reality, this first work (i.e. "Language and Thought
> of the Child"), for its historical significance for the development of the
> hidden side of psychological thought, must be placed alongside and compared
> with "Mental functioning in inferior societies" by Levy-Bruhl, "The
> interpretation of dreams" by Freud, and "The morbid conscience" by Blondel.
> Moreover, we observe between these findings in various fields of scientific
> psychology not only an external likeness,
> determined by their level of historical significance, but a profound and
> intimate internal affinity, a common essence in the philosophical and
> psychological tendencies that they contain and embody. Not without reason
> does Piaget apologize in an exaggerated manner for the research and theories
> of these three works and their authors."
>
>
>
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Received on Thu Sep 18 21:13 PDT 2008