Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Saussure, and Wolves with different dreams

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Hi vera-- The specific argument I find unsatisfactory is that the child is said to be reaching for something. That reach is interpreted by the adult who, through treating it as a request/pointing transforms it into a linguistic act. There is a lot to like about social orientation, etc., but that is not what is at issue in the specific Vygotskian example as i understand it. mike On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Vera Steiner <vygotsky@unm.edu> wrote: > Hi Mike at al, > This is the material I heard Tomasello lecture on at Berkeley during the > Linguistic Institute a couple of weeks ago I found the approach and the > argument very convincing from a CHAT point of view. It presupposes the > notion of a social orientation (I used to refer to it as the infant's > interdependence) as a pre- > condition of language acquisition. I think Bruner made a strong case that > social games also contribute to the infant's turn-taking which is an other > aspect of gestural communication being linked to the development of shared > attention, and later speech. I have not looked at Tomasello's new book yet > but I believe that in it he develops the whole argument in finer detail. I > know Mike that you have criticized some aspect of his work but I was unclear > whether the criticism is relevant to this issue of gesture/speech. > Vera > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com> > To: <ablunden@mira.net>; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 11:26 AM > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Saussure, and Wolves with different dreams > > > I have raised this issue before and somone (Anna Stetsenko) said that > current evidence contradicted me, but i could not find the contradiction in > the sources provided, so since it is so central an argument, it may well be > worth repeating. > > The claim is this: > > the development of a gesture [into a word (mc)] as (1) reaching for an > object, (2) a reaction arises, but not on the part of the object, but > another person, who completes the grasping for the child, and in being > directed towards another person, the gesture becomes contracted, and (3) > becomes a gesture for oneself. And I think this is as good as any a > representation of the Hegel passage I have given the link to. > > One relevant article is at the following accessible url. > > http://mindblog.dericbownds.net/2007/06/human-infant-pointing-precursor-to.html > > The work of Butterworth on infant pointing, which implicates an important > maturational ("natural line of development") component also needs to be > considered. Easy access to this can be found via google > using > The child in the world: embodiment, time, and language in early ... - > Google > Books Result< > http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DiZLu3UZxV-cC%26pg%3DPA170%26lpg%3DPA170%26dq%3Dinfant%2Bpointing%2Bbutterworth%26source%3Dbl%26ots%3DdNw6epggkB%26sig%3D7rQYEZwltjSF9IAB839enjx3Y8w%26hl%3Den%26ei%3DxwV_SvWLIJKKMe_ogPgC%26sa%3DX%26oi%3Dbook_result%26ct%3Dresult%26resnum%3D4&ei=xwV_SvWLIJKKMe_ogPgC&usg=AFQjCNFQMb2V9y3zehUm62ppY1RZg6zW6g&sig2=tS1cMjgVt_poz1Jq52wZmw > >These > > results do not negate the role of adult interpretation in the development > of > early words, or gestures, but they do complicate the picture I think. Easy > and repeated repitetation of LSV on this point is not going to be taken > serious without us taking seriously contemporary evidence and theoretical > claims. > > mike > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote: > > Mmm, well I had a read of the relevant passage in Hegel again last night, >> Steve, and again modified my opinion of its meaning. Here is a link to the >> point which is the nearest Hegel comes to this relation: >> >> http://marx.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/ssconsci.htm#SS334 >> >> I find this prettty opaque quite honestly, but I think if you read it on >> the assumption that Hegel is talking about the differentiating out of (c) >> individual consciousness (which is what Hegel meant by "psychology") from >> (a) animalistic action/reaction and (b) the collective consciousness of a >> cultural group, you might just get some sense out of it. >> >> LSV put it this way: >> >> "All cultural development of the child passes through three basic stages >> that can be described in the following way using Hegel’s analysis." (LSV >> CW >> v. 4 p. 104) My paraphrase of the rest of the paragraph: the development >> of >> a gesture as (1) reaching for an object, (2) a reaction arises, but not on >> the part of the object, but another person, who completes the grasping for >> the child, and in being directed towards another person, the gesture >> becomes >> contracted, and (3) becomes a gesture for oneself. And I think this is as >> good as any a representation of the Hegel passage I have given the link >> to. >> >> ----------- >> >> Vygotsky may have learnt about this passage secondhand from Lewin. But >> everyone knew about the Hegelian phrases "thing-in-itself", "thing-for-us" >> and "thing-for-itself", since these were part of the popular discourse >> around Hegel in Marxist circles. So I presume "concept-in-itself," the >> "concept-for-others" and the "concept-for-myself" is a kind of play on >> these >> concepts. But "concept-for-myself" is just not something you'd find in >> Hegel. The concept is always objective for Hegel. >> >> ----------- >> >> Now what Vygotsky meant by it: >> >> "Concept-in-itself" I take to be the unconscious use of words by a small >> child as an indivisible part of an action, a "handle" for a thing. This is >> close to the Hegelian idea, because the child is not yet conscious of >> having >> a concept or thing-name at all; it is indissolubly connected to the object >> itself. >> >> "Concept-for-others" I take to mean the use of a word for communicative >> action, e.g. asking an adult for assistance, and it is directed at the >> adult. >> >> "Concept-for-myself" is the use of language by the child to control its >> own >> actions, speech growing in, as they say, towards silent speech. I don't >> know >> if I entirely concur with Kozulin in saying this, but the idea you quote >> from Kozulin is certainly closely connnected, because the use of words to >> achieve intelligent *control* of one's own actions is surely closely >> connected with awareness of one's own consciousness (and behaviour). And I >> think you can link LSV and Hegel with (a) and (b) but I can't see it with >> (c). >> >> That's where I'm at with all this Steve. >> >> Andy >> >> >> >> Steve Gabosch wrote: >> >> Thanks, Andy. I think I am being a little dense here, because now I am >>> uncertain of both what Vygotsky meant, and what Hegel meant as well! LOL >>> >>> I get the **sense** of these distinctions, of course, but I don't think >>> they are yet registering for me as clear **concepts**. I might even be >>> able >>> to more or less correctly answer a question or two about what Vygotsky >>> said >>> on a school quiz, but I can tell I would only be doing so on the basis of >>> pseudoconceptual reasoning, because I can memorize the genetic order that >>> Vygotsky says that the concept-in-itself, the concept-for-others and the >>> concept-for-myself appear in the child - but not because I really >>> understand >>> **why** they appear in that order, or because I understand just **what** >>> these kinds of concepts actually are. I couldn't, offhand, give you >>> clear >>> examples of these three kinds of concepts. Your quote from Hegel is >>> helpful, but I have not fully conceptualized Hegel's treatment of these >>> ideas, either. I'm not so sure how I'd get very far on a school quiz on >>> that! LOL >>> >>> So let me refine my questions regarding Vygotsky's points. First, what >>> did Vygotsky mean by the terms "concept-in-itself," "concept-for-others" >>> and >>> "concept-for-myself"? Second, what are some examples of these kinds of >>> concepts? Third, why does he claim that the first two, as a rule, >>> precede >>> the latter in a child's intellectual development? >>> >>> For further thought, here are some relevant quotes from the paper, from >>> Vygotsky, and from Kozulin. >>> >>> Here is what Paula and Carol said (pg 236 in Wolves): >>> >>> "It is in this respect that Vygotsky notes that the genetic preconditions >>> of the “concept-for-myself” are already present in the pseudoconcept in >>> the >>> form of the “concept-in-itself” and the “concept-for-others”, because >>> these >>> occur earlier in the child than the “concept-for-myself”: he further >>> asserts >>> that this sequence is not restricted to conceptual development because it >>> occurs as a “rule rather than the exception in the intellectual >>> development >>> of the child” (p. 124)." >>> >>> Here is the passage by Vygotsky from Alex Kozulin's translation of >>> Thought >>> and Language they refer to (pg 124): >>> >>> "The concept-in-itself and the concept-for-others are developed in the >>> child earlier than the concept-for-myself. The concept-in-itself and the >>> concept-for-others, which are already present in the pseudoconcept, are >>> the >>> basic genetic precondition for the development of real concepts. This >>> peculiar genetic situation is not limited to the attainment of concepts; >>> it >>> is the rule rather the exception in the intellectual development of the >>> child." (7) >>> >>> In Footnote (7) to the above passage in Thought and Language (on page >>> 268), Kozulin comments: >>> >>> "7. Vygotsky's discussion of the phenomenon of pseudoconcepts has >>> far-reaching philosophical implications. First of all, if the conscious >>> awareness of one's own intellectual operations ("concept-for-me") is only >>> a >>> secondary achievement, which follows the practical use of these >>> operations, >>> then the individual cannot be considered a self-conscious center of >>> activity. [Note from Steve: I don't grasp what Alex just said.] The >>> individual appears rather as a "construction" built at the crossroads of >>> the >>> inner and outer realities. Second, the phenomenon of functional >>> equivalence >>> between real and pseudoconcepts warns us against taking the functional >>> appearance of communication for its ultimate content. The usage of "one >>> and >>> the same" words and subsequent "understanding" may be illusory. Such >>> illusion of understanding, based on the confusion between functional and >>> essential characteristics, constantly emerges in child-adult >>> communication, >>> in the dialogue between different social groups, and in contacts between >>> different cultures. For further discussion of this point, see Alex >>> Kozulin, >>> "Psychology and Philosophical Anthropology: The Problem of Their >>> Interaction," *The Philosophical Forum*, 1984, 15(4):443-458." >>> >>> <end> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 4, 2009, at 7:58 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Steve Gabosch wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> What did LSV mean by a "concept-for-myself," (a phrase, I understand, >>>>> is >>>>> derived from Hegel)? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Hegel would never have used quite the phrase, "concept-for-myself", but >>>> the way Vygotsky is using the idea: first concept in-itself, then >>>> for-others, and only last for-myself - i.e., self-consciousness, is >>>> quite >>>> consistent with Hegel's idea. It's really a play on Hegel. >>>> >>>> For example from Hegel's Introduction to the History of Philosophy: >>>> >>>> "But consciousness really implies that for myself, I am object to >>>> myself. >>>> In forming this absolute division between what is mine and myself, Mind >>>> constitutes its existence and establishes itself as external to itself. >>>> It >>>> postulates itself in the externality." >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> xmca mailing list >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> xmca mailing list >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >>> >>> >>> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Andy Blunden (Erythrós Press and Media) http://www.erythrospress.com/ >> Orders: http://www.erythrospress.com/store/main.html#books >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> xmca mailing list >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> >> _______________________________________________ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > _______________________________________________ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca