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Re: [xmca] Consciousness "only a part of the material quality of the man-sign"

Tony,
That's a good illustration. What counts as 'the 8:25 to Paris' is defined by a whole collection of schedules, regulations, not to mention practices of engineering, travel, and so on. These are the conditions of its identity - of what kind of entity it is, if you like. My ability, as an individual, to recognize the 8:25 as what it is requires that I have the practical know-how to read schedules and clocks, find the right platform, etc. Knowing enough to call a trough a trough is not as simple as it might seem - but Philip evidently had high standards! 

Martin

On Sep 28, 2009, at 4:02 PM, Tony Whitson wrote:


As for the ideality of spades:
Plutarch wrote that Philip of Macedon said that Macedonians are so crude that they can't come up with anything other to call a trough, than calling it a trough. Erasmus mistranslated "trough" as "spade," hence the saying "to call a spade a spade." (Caring about his son Alexander, Philip hired that guy from Athens called Aristotle to be his tutor. Alexander had his father killed, they say, and as they say, "the rest is history." 
(see Wikipedia for "call a spade a spade)
As for the axe head and axe handle, Carnap and Saussure had different ways of handling this. Here's from pp. 283-284 of my article, Whitson, J. A. (2007). Education à la Silhouette: The need for semiotically-informed curriculum consciousness. Semiotica, 164 (1/4), 235-329:
The important problem of understanding difference and identity was recognized and discussed explicitly by Hobbes (1839 [1655]: 132-138), Locke (1995 [1689]: Bk. 2 Ch. 27), and Carnap (1969: 250-254), as well as by Saussure. To help us see how Saussure differs from the more classical forms of positivism, it is fortuitous that Carnap actually used the same example as one used by Saussure: the problem of 'identity' as represented in the statement 'Today I came home on the same train as yesterday, namely, on the 6:12' (Carnap 1969: 252), or when 'we speak of the identity of two "8:25 p.m. Geneva-to-Paris" trains that leave at twenty-four hour intervals. We feel that it is the same train each day, yet every¬thing--the locomotive, coaches, personnel--is probably different' (Saussure 1959 [1907-1916]: 108).
Carnap offers two alternative ways of thinking about this: According to the first approach, we are ... not concerned with identity, but with various other relations which, however, are envisaged as identity (either linguistically or conceptually). According to the second approach, we are not here concerned with similarity (in this or that respect), but with identity in the strict sense, however, not with identity between the individual objects which occur here, but between objects on a higher level (classes or relation extensions), of which the objects are representatives. (Carnap 1969: 252) 

For Saussure:
... what makes the express is its hour of departure, its route, and in general every circumstance that sets it apart from other trains. Whenever the same conditions are fulfilled, the same entities are obtained. Still, the entities are not abstract since we cannot conceive of a … train outside its material realization. (Saussure 1959 [1907-1916]: 109, emphasis added)
For Saussure, the 8:25 to Paris is 'the same entity' from one day to the next, even if the equipment and personnel are all not the same, by virtue of everything that sets the 8:25 to Paris apart from all the other trains—in other words, its identity within the structured system of different schedules for all the different trains and routes. For Saussure, the 8:25 is a positive entity, with the positive self-identity of its daily instantiations arising from what they have in common with each other, which is essentially and distinctively nothing other than their negative differences from all the other trains.
For Carnap, we can also speak of the 6:12 train home every day as having positive identity, in the strict sense, with the understanding that the identity pertains to the 6:12 as a class, which is represented by its daily instantiations; in this case, the class or 'higher-level object' for which 'identity holds in the strict sense' consists of 'the arrangement to have a daily train at 6:12 P.M., as a class of train runs' (Carnap 1969: 253). Here, the 6:12 is again a positive entity, but with its positive self-identity established on the basis of the positive characteristics that it possesses as a class. Carnap's alternative—interpreting the statement as one that is actually 'not concerned with identity, but with various other relations'—adds further emphasis to his insistence on observing the 'strict sense' of identity as such. 

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:


Speaking of the material aspect of language and comparing spades to
statues I just can't resist the following politically incorrect joke:

Sven came into some money and so he hired a contractor to build a new
house. As he is going over the plans with the contractor he tells the man that in every room he wants an "Hallo Statue". The contractor looks at him confused and asks, "Sven what is an Hallo Statue?" Sven says, "You 
know, it rings, you pick it up and say "Hallo Statue?"

From the land of scandinavian immigrants

eric




Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>
Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
09/26/2009 06:33 PM
Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> 
      cc:
Subject: Re: [xmca] Consciousness "only a part of the material quality of 
the man-sign"


Martin - I agree with you and Mike Cole that all artifacts, including
spades and axes, (and even their parts), insofar as humans are
actively engaged with them in some way, are ideal, as well as
material. I think of "ideality" as the meaning or social significance 
of things.

(Am reading your notes on The Concept of the Ideal ...)


Hi Haydi!  Your mentioning of axes reminds me of an amusing joke that
is also a nice illustration of how I think Ilyenkov views ideality.
It has been told on xmca before.

A young man is meeting his fiance's father, who is showing him around
the farmhouse and boasting about an axe hung up above the fireplace.
"That axe has been in the family for generations!" he exclaimed.  "It
is the very ax that chopped down the trees that this house was made
from. And that axe has chopped the wood for all the fires ever burned 
in this fireplace.  We are very proud of that axe!  And it is such a
fine axe, that the axe handle has only been replaced three times, and
the axe head, only twice!"

- Steve




- Steve


On Sep 26, 2009, at 3:02 PM, Martin Packer wrote:


Haydi,

I think your view, that a spade is not ideal but a statue is, is
close to the view that Steve and Andy have. I beg to differ, but I
respect the difference.

I'm curious to learn about the new translation of Crisis. Who is
working on the translation, and into what language? There are some
passages towards the end that are very puzzling in English.

Martin


On Sep 26, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Haydi Zulfei wrote:


Martin

Thank you !

I managed to withdraw from the discussion and now you are late in
kindness ! though very appreciable .

To speak out , when two giants go hand in hand with their
discussions as though privately , others willing to take part even
with a poor knowledge have the right to object . This becomes very
complicated when the adressed giant takes no heed .

Yes English is not my native language and most of the time I'm
silent . That's plea for disregard ?

As of the spade , it's not the case that I don't know anything of
what you explained . Sometime somebody told me on the skype an axe
taken as its separate parts is material but taken as assembled and
as some tool to cut trees is ideal .

On the other hand , I've read from Ilyenko when one round of
activity in which the ideal is the driving force is finished , we
have just the product as ideality dead , an object like other
objects . Now the ideal is embodied ; it was up to this moment in
the process of the activity , not in the head according to
Ilyenko . Dubrovsky has another story .

The image of a building not yet built ideal but erected dwelt in ,
material .

I have the right to say a spade is not a thing for something else
but a statue is . Where is the difference ? How can it be
justified ? These are things you also deal with at times to no
end . Why is it they get problematic when discussed by us ?

To your ever friendly gestures

Thanks again

Haydi

--- On Sat, 9/26/09, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:


From: Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Consciousness "only a part of the material
quality of the man-sign"
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 5:09 PM


Haydi,

I apologize for not responding directly to your messages. As you
noted, your English raises some barriers for me. For example, you
seem to say here that we never say a spade is ideal. But this isn't
true, is it? Mike has written about the way artifacts embody the
activities in which they are used, are formed to support particular
activities, and in this (Ilyenkovian) sense are certainly ideal.
Does this imply then that all material things are ideal?  Andy will
disagree with me (he already did, back when we were discussing
Ilyenkov's analysis of ideality), but I would say yes, that insofar
as material things are caught up in human social practices, they
are also ideal. (Actually I would prefer to use a somewhat
different vocabulary than Ilyenkov does, but I'm in general
agreement with what he seems to be saying.) And of course, as an
individual I can only encounter things as they are caught up in
such practices.

To forge a link to Tony's post from Pierce, I think also proposes
that humans are ideal, or to be more precise become ideal in
ontogenesis. Rather like saying a human is a sign. But that's a big
topic.

Martin


On Sep 26, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Haydi Zulfei wrote:


. Martin brought strong evidence from Marx indicating *real
talers* as Gods are just in the common imagination of man , thus
ideal , you see , real talers , real money papers , ideal , but we
never say a spade is ideal , exchange value of a commodity ideal ,
use value of the same commodity material as corporeal , ask why ??
you say ideals always material things ? You don't remember your
repeated resort to the definition of ideals as reflections of the
objects of the world onto the mind ? If the ideality plane is a
reflection of the materiality plane , then where is the
difference ? Two groups of material things ? What and what ? or
are all material things , ideal altogether ?

Material things with *social significance* , ideal ? Any other
significances with material things as you put emphasis on *social* ? 

Excuse me , Andy ! I know something of spatial temporal causal
properties of matter , thing in itself ; at some other time you
will be kind to make me familiar with the ideal properties of
material things . Thanks a lot .

Then dear Martin has other adressees besides me . Well . OK .
That's very good .

Enough for me now , thank you !

Friendly yours

Haydi

--- On Sat, 9/26/09, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:


From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Consciousness "only a part of the material
quality of the man-sign"
To:
Cc: "Culture ActivityeXtended Mind" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 2:01 PM


Haydi, please help me limit the number of questions under
discussion on this thread at one time, or we will never resolve
anything.

Yes, a complication with my responding to you was that in trying
to support my position against Martin's position, you made (in my
opinion) the opposite error. So it was hard to say to you: "No,
language is material," and to Martin: "No, consciousness is not
matter" and make sense.

Let's just look at your claim. You say that language is a system
of ideals. Quite correct. But ideals are always material things.
When we cognize ideals (i.e., material things with social
significance) then not only the material properties, but also the
ideal properties of things are reflected in our consciousness.

But Martin was right: all systems of representation are material,
including language. I was just saying that in his own terms, he
was being tautological. But Martin explained: he was addressing
himself to people who believed in non-material systems of
representation. So of course, you objected.

Andy

Haydi Zulfei wrote:

Andy
 1. Quite true Andy . Yes , putting some , few , a , two ,
whatever into the heart of an assertion of *every* , *all* is
mere tautology which I shyingly / ashamedly believe Martin is
committing not just once but several times .
 2. I suppose here you could point out to Martin that he could
be taken to be right only if he thought of a materialistic monism
and I wonder why you didn't . Yes , materialistic Monism opposes
strongly the Cartesian dualistic understanding of matter/mind ,
body/soul either belonging to a quite unfamiliar separate world/
domain . If we reject the Cartesian dualism , it's not plea for
others to argue we negate our belief in two distinct but related
philosophically categorical domains of materiality/ideality , a
thing versus concept of a thing , etc. Once I said while we
ourselves are creations of the outdide--matter-- .... , does that
mean my consciousness which is real and exists , is matter ? or
even material in the sense of palpable , corporeal , stuffy ? No
for sure . I added that some philosophers argue Cs is material in
the sense of it being an attribute of matter and even this does
not evade the categorical distinction .
 3. This time , pardon , tautology on your side . It's Martin
who should ask you to show him a representational system which is
not *material* because he asserts materiality with *every* ... .
But when I gave you *language* and some other *systems* as some
representational systems being ideal reasoning upon them , it was
dear Martin who should have broken  the silence , entered the
discussion and come up with likely refutations . I already had
sided with you .
 4. Again I wonder why you who so scholarly argue for the quite
legitimate philosophical categorical distinction of the mind/
matter , are ready to accept language is material ; and how can
you separate thus language domain from the Cs , mind ,
intellect , ideality , subjectivity domain ? Then Martin will be
quite right to think of all these as being material . I'm now
reading Dubrovsky's *The Nature of the Ideal* . Maybe it's a
borderline category but I'm sure it's philosophical , too . No
time to search now . It's a familiar controversy here . I side
with the external ideals as being representations of the internal
ideals rather than being genuinely material as other world
corporeal objects . We have suffered lots of confusion with this
*doubling* of materiality . I suppose we have to put them in
contrast to each other , otherwise there will remain unsolved
problems . Take the best of the bees and the worst of the
architects or the *real* talers

of

Marx along with Gods as examples of ideals -- my previous posts .

 5. You do know language came into being because of collective
labour . And please have another look at V's last two paragraphs
of T&S . And please think of what a syntax of a thought might be
with children . And please consider yourself reviewing the
lecture you're going to deliver *in* your mind before putting it
in its sound/acoustic version . And historical genesis as well .
Now may you , in your turn , tell me what kind of existence a
consciousness has for which you are seeking an appropriate
definition ?
 I wonder if sleep will reign !
 Friendly Yours
 Haydi

--- On *Sat, 9/26/09, Andy Blunden /<ablunden@mira.net>/* wrote:


    From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Consciousness "only a part of the material 
    quality of the man-sign"
    To:
    Cc: "Culture ActivityeXtended Mind" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
    Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 11:54 AM

    Haydi, I firmly believe that there is no value in flying on
to 101
    questions if the very first one remains unsolved.

    Going to your third: the problem under discussion was this:

    Martin referred to a series of "representational systems"
being all
    "material"; I pointed out that Martin had already said that
    *everything*, even consciousness, was material so the
statement that
these representational systems were material was a "motherhood 
    statement", i.e., a tautology.

    So I responded "show me a representational system which is
*not*
    material" which is a problem for Martin because he says that
    everything is material. You then said that you could name a
    representational system which was not material, namely,
language.

    I responded to you that language was always material, and
you now
    say "no, language is an non-material entity which is "put
into a
    body." I suspect that you are relying on the concept of the
'ideal'
    which is a social category, not an opposite to "material."

    Let's just deal with this. I don't accept that there is a
language
    which is non-material which can then be "put into" a body.
Can you
    explain to me what kind of existence language has before it
is put
    into material.

    I won't try to anticipate your answer, but I wonder if this
will
    lead us back to our original problem: consciousness.

    Andy

    Haydi Zulfei wrote:
    > Andy
    >  First there were other argumentations .
    >  Second : to your question : Consciousness itself .
    >  Third : This was just a telegraphic note but the problem
    persists . Embodiment is to put something in a body . Then
we have
    two things . The cover and the covered . In principle , the
    necessity of putting that something -- ideal -- in a body is
that
    itself is not of the same genus . That's for you to expect
ideals be
    buried there in the mysterious hidden box yet not quite well
known ,
    indefinable ! at times , stopped , deceased , so life is
also defunct .
    >  I can also give *subjectivity , subjectness* ; can you
show me a
    palpable thing called *subjectivity* and it's
representational ,
    secondary , derived .   Haydi
    >
    > --- On *Sat, 9/26/09, Andy Blunden /<ablunden@mira.net
    <http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ablunden@mira.net

/*

    wrote:
    >
    >
    >     From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
    <http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ablunden@mira.net



    >     Subject: Re: [xmca] Consciousness "only a part of the
material
    >     quality of the man-sign"
    >     To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"

<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu

    <http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu



    >     Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 9:57 AM
    >
    >     Haydi, you can't talk of "Language *aside from* the
modality in
    >     which it is embodied" and then say "language is not
material." Of
    >     course, anything "aside from" its materiality is
immaterial.
    Show me
    >     a representational system which is *not* "embiodied."
    >
    >     Andy
    >
    >     Haydi Zulfei wrote:
    >     > Dear Andy
    >     >  Language itself aside from the modality in which
it is
    >     formed/embodied and as it is consisted of signs is
ideal for the
    >     folowing reasons :  1. We have read on many occasions
that it's a
    >     formant of the Cs . When you are dealing with the Cs
as something
    >     catogirically distinct from the material which is
quite quite
    true ,
    >     why is it you could accept a formant of this something
    categorically
    >     distinct from *material* could be all the way
*material* .
    This is
    >     just where Martin finds the opportunity to argue for a
    doubling of
    >     *materiality* . A statue as such is ideal the same
way real
    talers
    >     as well as Gods are ideal for Marx (previous post) .
Real
    talers or
    >     money paper are things palpable , corporeal , stuffy ,
    substantial ;
    >     yet they are for Marx ideal ; the yardstick is that
they are
    >     representations for something *esle* . The talerness
of the
    talers
    >     and the statueness of a statue need a social thinking
body to be
    >     recognized as such . Aside from the social thought/
Cs , the whole
    >     things become just use values , valueless , lacking
any exchange
    >     value as for Marx . And we shouldn't forget the second
    >     >  condition Lenin mentions either . As of
language , the
    ink , the
    >     carbon or the acoustics with which it is embodied
does not
    make it
    >     *material* the same way *stone* , *bronze* , *cement* ,
    *plastics*
    >     of a staue do not make the *form* -- not contrasting
content
    here --
    >     of the statueness *material* ; the form now indicates
Lincoln
    , now
    >     Lenin , now so and so . But the stone , etc. remain
the same
    all the
    >     time . This latter part you name categorically
*material* to this
    >     day distinct from the *ideal* as Cs is . A clock
consists of many
    >     many parts , that is  , many corporals , materials ,
use values ;
    >     but all these should be organized in such a way to
represent
    >     something else , time measurement . The palpability
or the
    visuality
    >     of the clock should not take us where we could say
it's something
    >     material . See what of the three divisions of Peirce
fits this .
    >     When you take the ideality of the language away from
it , the
    whole
    >     sentence/text/book becomes ink
    >     >  spilt/scattered over the paper out of neglect .
Your
    example of
    >     *carved in stone* incidentally helps us to get the
gist quite
    easily
    >     ; you , in fact , take some materiality away from the
stone
    so that
    >     a language becomes eligible for the readers . What
remains as
    some
    >     markings or signs no longer have any materiality ;
the remaining
    >     stone frame does not have anything to do with the
language
    carved in
    >     it . This is also true with the braille texture .
It's the
    >     organization/ordinance of the texture which is a
language not the
    >     stuff therefrom . When you and Mike are on the screen
lipreading
    >     each other in non-acoustics silence , you , in fact ,
have a
    >     telepathy version of language ; you're this way
exchanging your
    >     mentalities with no materiality at hand . The
computer is
    modality
    >     for your vision not for the language you are using .
And
    lastly ,
    >     because a word is a sign , something for something
else , in
    itself
    >     ! just a yelling or a marking denoting nothing as
referring
    to the
    >     objects of the world which you so philosophically /
inexaustively
    >     are defending !
    >     >  Best
    >     >  Haydi
    >     > --- On Sat, 9/26/09, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
    <http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ablunden@mira.net



    >        <http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ablunden@mira.net



    wrote:
    >     >
    >     >
    >     > From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
    <http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ablunden@mira.net



    >     <http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ablunden@mira.net



    >     > Subject: Re: [xmca] Consciousness "only a part of
the material
    >     quality of the man-sign"
    >     > To: "Haydi Zulfei" <haydizulfei@yahoo.com
    <http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=haydizulfei@yahoo.com



    >        <http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=haydizulfei@yahoo.com



    >     > Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 12:26 AM
    >     >
    >     >
    >     > Language is a material representational system,
Haydi.
    >     >
    >     > Language may be in speech (vibrations in the air),
text
    (markings
    >     on a surface or optical projections on a screen or
carved in
    stone)
    >     or texture (as in Braille), but there is no mental
telepathy
    version
    >     of language that I know of.
    >     >
    >     > Why do you think the written and spoken word is
not material?
    >     >
    >     > Andy
    >     > Haydi Zulfei wrote:
    >     >> Now you ask Martin to tell you a representational
system
    which
    >     is not *material* . I tell you *language* is a system
which
    is not
    >     material.
    >     >
    >     >
    >     >
    >     >
    >     >
_______________________________________________
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    >     > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
    <http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu



    >        <http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu



    >     > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
    >     >
    >
    >     --
    >


------------------------------------------------------------------------

    >     Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
    >     Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
Meshcheryakov,
    >     Ilyenkov $20 ea
    >
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    >     http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
    >
    >

    --



------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
    Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
    Ilyenkov $20 ea

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
Ilyenkov $20 ea

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Tony Whitson
UD School of Education
NEWARK  DE  19716

twhitson@udel.edu
_______________________________

"those who fail to reread
are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
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