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That's a very helpful addition to the diagram, Andy. Makes it more useful.
Thanks.
Peter
Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.ne
t> To
Sent by: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
xmca-bounces@webe <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
r.ucsd.edu cc
Subject
11/11/2009 01:18 Re: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's
AM "genealogy"
Please respond to
ablunden@mira.net
; Please respond
to
"eXtended Mind,
Culture,
Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.
edu>
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.htm
I replaced the PDF with an HTML version, which gives you
little 50-word summaries of what each contributed to CHAT
(when you hover) and a link to their Wikipedia page (when
you click).
Andy
Martin Packer wrote:
> Andy, thinking on this a bit further, it seems to me that these diagrams
> are trying to do two different things at the same time. One is to
> provide helpful contextual information to anyone reading LSV's texts. I
> think this itself is a valuable enterprise, one that compensates a
> little for the minimal teaching of the history of the discipline in
> psychology, at least. A diagram serving this purpose need go no further
> towards the present than the end of Vygotsky's life. And for this the
> lines to and from Vygotsky himself would be redundant; he would be
> connected to everyone.
>
> A second task, and a distinct one in my view, would be a diagram
> indicating forms of, and influences on, CHAT today. Here people like
> Helmholtz and Fichte would, I think, not play a role - their influence
> would be entirely mediated by LSV. And such a diagram would be more
> detailed about the present: for example, the last row of your diagram is
> almost exclusively people working in the US; it would be helpful to see
> here Scandinavian, German, British, etc. schools of CHAT.
>
> I'm not volunteering you for the work (nor do I have time to do it
> myself), just trying to think through the role of this kind of
> representational reconstruction of intellectual history.
>
> Martin
>
>
> On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
>> Yes, it is mind-boggling. Probably better for people to produce a
>> multiplicity of different perspectives, than try to produce a master
>> view. There are so many angles!
>>
>> Lewin is interesting. Not only was he close to the Frankfurt School,
>> but he also worked with Vygotsky, and I suspect this is where Vygotsky
>> got a lot of his Hegel from.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>> Andy, I think the map is interesting and useful. But how about this.
>>> I was exploring further on the virtual library that I mentioned in a
>>> prior message. It turns out there's quite a lot there in English, not
>>> only German. I had been enjoying myself browsing through scans of the
>>> papers of Carl Stumpf, who was teacher of both Kurt Lewin and Edmund
>>> Husserl. Teacher-student seems to me one important connection between
>>> figures. Lewin apparently had regular contact with the Frankfurt
>>> School (connection of 'colleague') before leaving for the US, where
>>> he would have found himself transplanted into the new milieu of
>>> behaviorism.
>>> I think Mike is right, we need 3D!
>>> Martin
>>> On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>> I've been thinking ... What these diagrams lack is any information
>>>> about why a writer is included and what they contributed to CHAT.
>>>> Would anyone on the list like to put their hand up to write a
>>>> paragraph (max 100 words probably) on a writer on the diagram
>>>> explaining their contribution to CHAT and their sources? I would be
>>>> happy to collate them and fix the essays to hyperlinks on the names
>>>> of each writer? ... if others do most of the writing ... then the
>>>> diagram might be genuinely useful.
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>> Mmmmm. I didn't sign up for an intellecual map of the universe
>>>>> here! The French Revolution produced a mass of political theory of
>>>>> course, but also, it is widely regarded as the inspiration for
>>>>> Classical German Philosophy, which is one of our sources.
>>>>> World War One? I don't know, but I have thought in the past that
>>>>> what Vygotsky called "The Crisis in Psychology", viz., the myriad
>>>>> of conflicting currents in psychology suddenly contesting each
>>>>> other after WW1, was some kind of reaction to WW1 and the Russian
>>>>> Revolution.
>>>>> The Reformation and the Industrial Revolution deserve mention
>>>>> somewhere too, in the atlas of ideas. ...
>>>>> Andy
>>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>>> Hmmmmm, like the French revolution or world war I for example?
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Both Arne's and mine are listed on
>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in that
>>>>>> directory. I too would be interested in seeing some other
versions.
>>>>>> Something might emerge out of the crowd.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number of ...
what
>>>>>> do you say? ... millieux? events? movements? which produced the
>>>>>> main
>>>>>> ideas, via a whole mass of individual writers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I
thought
>>>>>> Arne's was too, and I a sure others can make interesting
>>>>>> modifications. If anyone could do this in three D it could get
>>>>>> really fascinating.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Part of what makes for the partiality of any such attempt is
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> position of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural
historical
>>>>>> cognitive scientist of the
>>>>>> 70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and unusually
>>>>>> nice guy.
>>>>>> Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central
figures
>>>>>> on bringing
>>>>>> dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know about
>>>>>> him just
>>>>>> as many of us do not know some of the figures you name, and
the
>>>>>> connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-American
>>>>>> pragmatism are poorly known altogether, but fascinating (to
>>>>>> me!)
>>>>>> in their implications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, of course, the historical events that various of us might
>>>>>> highlight as
>>>>>> most relevant are going to vary as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get Arne's
>>>>>> genealogy put
>>>>>> up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute from
their
>>>>>> perspectives.
>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, here's my shot at it:
>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
>>>>>> I have tried to deal with your very valid point, Martin,
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> it is
>>>>>> more the milieux than individuals, but I have also just
>>>>>> omitted a
>>>>>> billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs more
>>>>>> than one
>>>>>> person to do this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My question about the map is what the links
>>>>>> represent. After
>>>>>> all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the
>>>>>> ideas or
>>>>>> another, or react against them, or modify them, or
>>>>>> misunderstand
>>>>>> them. Seems to me each of these is a different link.
>>>>>> Also, a
>>>>>> family tree indicates two parents for every progeny,
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous
>>>>>> generation - one
>>>>>> figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we
>>>>>> want to
>>>>>> have a
>>>>>> way to map the milieus within which people were
working?
>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>> something along the lines of the social fields that
>>>>>> Bourdieu was
>>>>>> fond of sketching, but with an added historical
>>>>>> dimension.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To tell the truth Louise, there are a couple of
>>>>>> names I
>>>>>> don't know and half a dozen I know so little about
I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> know why they're included ... or not. Two of the
>>>>>> three
>>>>>> "outcomes" are people who think humans are a type
of
>>>>>> computer, so I am not surpised that this
>>>>>> genealogy is
>>>>>> odd to
>>>>>> me. But there is sooooo much out there. So much to
>>>>>> read. :(
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Up till a few weeks ago I thought that starting
with
>>>>>> Descartes was not justified, but I take that back
>>>>>> now. But
>>>>>> somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs to be
>>>>>> included as
>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know anything about Vico, but I find Locke,
>>>>>> Berkeley
>>>>>> and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our* story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kant certainly deserves an important place, but I
>>>>>> think his
>>>>>> nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fichte is actually the inventor of Activity as a
>>>>>> philosophical concept (I just learnt that Hegel
>>>>>> asked
>>>>>> to be
>>>>>> buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very under
>>>>>> recognized in
>>>>>> the Anglophone world).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology, so
>>>>>> agreed there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions
>>>>>> from our
>>>>>> tradition. But maybe someone can explain to me
their
>>>>>> role.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I don't
know
>>>>>> them well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if you're
>>>>>> going to
>>>>>> have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess,
>>>>>> author of
>>>>>> "Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for
>>>>>> "Theses on
>>>>>> Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege, Russell
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Turing
>>>>>> are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then you
>>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>> want Hess.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MARX, obviously, in CAPS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I would have lines from a whole bunch of people
>>>>>> going to
>>>>>> Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even
>>>>>> though Peirce
>>>>>> was the elder, I don't think you can give him such
>>>>>> priority.
>>>>>> Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for
>>>>>> computer
>>>>>> cognition, but there needs to be lines between
>>>>>> Goethe and
>>>>>> Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to Koehler
>>>>>> and Co.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't know
>>>>>> where they
>>>>>> came from.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And these threads are all tied together with LS
>>>>>> Vygotsky, yes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his sources),
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria you
>>>>>> have ANL
>>>>>> and thus to present day people,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I don't
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> Piaget's sources.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if
you're
>>>>>> going
>>>>>> to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to put in
>>>>>> Lukacs and
>>>>>> Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse
>>>>>> ethics, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger get a
>>>>>> mention. I my
>>>>>> humble opinion, as clever as they might be, their
>>>>>> impact on
>>>>>> Activity Theory has only been negative.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned: was he a
>>>>>> source for
>>>>>> Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there.
>>>>>> Interesting guy,
>>>>>> but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention, though
>>>>>> I don't
>>>>>> know how much of a source he has been for us. He
>>>>>> is some
>>>>>> kind of version of Activity Theory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do with
>>>>>> CHAT. What
>>>>>> about anthropologists??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Never heard of Maturana.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's my reaction,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Louise Hawkins wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy,
>>>>>> I remember seeing this diagram a number of
>>>>>> years ago,
>>>>>> and I found it useful as a big picture
>>>>>> diagram to
>>>>>> get my
>>>>>> head around the significant theorist.
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Louise Hawkins
>>>>>> Lecturer - School of Management & Information
>>>>>> Systems
>>>>>> Faculty Business & Informatics
>>>>>> Building 19/Room 3.38
>>>>>> Rockhampton Campus
>>>>>> CQUniversity
>>>>>> Ph: +617 4923 2768
>>>>>> Fax: +617 4930 9729
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
>>>>>> 2009 01:05 PM
>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>> Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
>>>>>> I never found this map very useful to be
honest.
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you found Arne Raeithel's
>>>>>> "genealogy" of
>>>>>> cultural-historical, activity theory
>>>>>> thinkers
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> several years back. I am sure it is
>>>>>> somewhere at
>>>>>> lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you (and
>>>>>> Andy,
>>>>>> and.....) could update it with
>>>>>> more detail. Hegel generated so much that
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> "laundered" by subsequent "original"
>>>>>> thinkers its
>>>>>> totally amazing, and ditto Mead (whose
>>>>>> writings i
>>>>>> know far better, although very
>>>>>> inadequately).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>
>>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>
>>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
>>>>>> Meshcheryakov,
>>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
Meshcheryakov,
>>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, Ilyenkov
>> $20 ea
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
Ilyenkov $20 ea
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