FW: [xmca] bodies and artifacts

[Mabel Encinas <liliamabel@hotmail.com>]

Sorry, Andy, this email is for xmca again! 

 

> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 11:11:10 +1100
> From: ablunden@mira.net
> To: liliamabel@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> 
> Did you mean this to go to me only, Mabel? You address Mike 
> at the end. BTW, Mike already corrected me about Bateson.
> 
> Andy
> 
> Mabel Encinas wrote:
> > Because I normaly take days to read through and write (I still have to 
> > answer to Haydi, Jay and Larry emails they wrote so long ago in the time 
> > of xmca, that maybe it has been forgotten what we were talking about). 
> > This time I am writing about this.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I recently mentioned that it was Batson (as far as I know) the one that 
> > talked about the stick. I think, however, that this is not far of 
> > sociocultural and cultural historical understanding of artefacts.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I do not see people as objects, neither as tools. When talking about 
> > body as artefact, I thought, Andy, that you were refering to the body in 
> > relation to the 'self', was that what you meant? I understood that you 
> > were talking about the way in which we use our body to act in the world. 
> > I do not think that people see babies as objects (or maybe some of them 
> > do), but it is a path that I would consider fruitful in view of our future.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The thing her is if we become the humans we are in relation to the 
> > creation and use of artifacts and if it is what makes us human the 
> > artefacts themselves or the practices we engage when we use so artifacts 
> > (even the brain, in case it s an artefact). This might seem a very tiny 
> > semantic differences, but I think this can explain lots of things.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Mike, thank you very much for the references.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Mabel
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 15:35:46 +1100
> > > From: ablunden@mira.net
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > >
> > > Thanks for the correction on the blind man's stick. It was
> > > W-M Rolf who first told it to me. :) Great scenario.
> > >
> > > If you already have the article in PDF, yes I'd love it. But
> > > I am busy with emotions at this second.
> > >
> > > On bodies: I would never say a *person*, even a new-born is
> > > an artefact; I refer to the *body*. Human bodies are natural
> > > products, products of phylogeny, products of human labour
> > > over millennia and products of the person's own labour and
> > > that of those that they associate with during their
> > > lifetime. But I don't wish to talk of a person in that way.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > mike cole wrote:
> > > > I have the whole article if you or others are interested, Andy.
> > > > I am still trying to sort all this out and do not have a fixed 
> > position.
> > > > By my analysis (see lchc.ucsd.com <http://lchc.ucsd.com>) human beings
> > > > are hybrids so its hard for me to draw lines. At the same time, 
> > clearly,
> > > > human newborns are cultural "objects" in that they emerge into a
> > > > cultural environment which interprets them and arranges their 
> > futures in
> > > > various ways.
> > > >
> > > > I REALLY recommend J.D. Peters' /Speaking into the air/ which we have
> > > > been reading along with various other texts in this class. And of
> > > > course, Raymond Williams is worth reading whether you agree or not all
> > > > the time.
> > > >
> > > > mike
> > > >
> > > > PS-- blind man and stick does not, so far as i know, stem from
> > > > activity theory. Merleau Ponty, Bateson (where i encountered it)
> > > > and probably lots of other places. Among psychologists in "the 
> > west" the
> > > > name James Gibson plays a role here --the "originator" (whatever that
> > > > means) of the idea of affordances, coped by so many others its hard to
> > > > count.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> > > > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > That's an interesting piece, Mike. Writing a text book on
> > > > communication, he wants to emphasize the distinction between a
> > > > technical device, technique and technology, in terms of distinctions
> > > > between things and the social practices and knowledge for using
> > > > them. From there the author extends these distinctions to the human
> > > > body. "Even as we insist on this qualitative change" of using things
> > > > outside the body, he feels it important to group the human body as a
> > > > "resource" (i.e., artefact) albeit an inherent one.
> > > >
> > > > The context I came to the same view was (1) in trying to figure out
> > > > where to fit the human body in a reading of Hegel (for whom the
> > > > cultural origin of the human body is unknown), (2) understanding the
> > > > blind person's stick scenario used in Activity Theory (where to draw
> > > > a line between body and artefact), and (3) trying to understand what
> > > > the problem with intersubjective theories in the Frankfurt School
> > > > (readings of Mead or of Hegel).
> > > >
> > > > In these latter cases, writers subsumed the human body into the
> > > > "subject" (as does ANL actually), and thus, the culturally shaped
> > > > and inherited nature of the human body, *used* in communication and
> > > > labour, is elided into the the subject itself, as if not historical
> > > > or culturally resourced, but autonomous.
> > > >
> > > > How did you read this piece, Mike?
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > >
> > > > mike cole wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was unsure how to contribute to the discussion of bodies and
> > > > artifacts.
> > > > Reading an
> > > > article by Raymond Williams for class monday, I came across a
> > > > passage that
> > > > appears
> > > > relevant. Its from his edited book on Communication on the topic
> > > > of comm
> > > > technologies
> > > > and social institutions. I could only cut and past from the pdf
> > > > I had, so it
> > > > is attached. I
> > > > think the distinction he makes between "inherent physical
> > > > resources" and
> > > > "systems based
> > > > on the development and application of objects and forces outside
> > > > the human
> > > > body" may
> > > > be relevant. Or maybe not. Hard to move things from one
> > > > discussion to
> > > > another and have the meaning remain roughly the same.
> > > >
> > > > But Williams is always interesting to think with. Even fragments.
> > > > mike
> > > > -
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > > > Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> > > > Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > > Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> > > Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, 
> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> 
 		 	   		  
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