Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Well, I can confirm that they are from the same source because I got this
from Luria and my copy had a couple of his hand written changes in the
translation on it.

It is supposed to have been written for an American publication, but was not
published.

I have been told by the parties involved that Peter Tulviste and Kolya
Goldberg translated the version I saw. Peter has moved on to more important
things and Kolya was rumored to be in Poland at a Neuropsych conf. (And i
could be misinformed, and so could anyone, given the complex circumstances
between 1930 and 1977!!).
mike

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com
> wrote:

> Unfortunately that I do not know for sure
>
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Thank you Bella, this is what I had suposed...But this Russian from Tom 6
> > is really from the1930 version, do you confirm?
> > Thank you very much.Achilles.
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 19:05:33 +0300
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > but the "inculcation of the laws of the visual field"  does not
> > correspond
> > > to
> > > ..."перестройка законов зрительного поля"
> > > which is reorganization of the laws(or rules) of the visual field
> > > so both translations are far from ideal
> > >
> > > n Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Elina Lampert-Shepel <
> ellampert@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi, Achills,
> > > > I am in a rush to get into the airport, so please forgive me for a
> > quick
> > > > analysis.The first sentence is fine in both translations. But I agree
> > with
> > > > you, Readers' version is more adequate in the second sentence.
> "Genuine
> > and
> > > > the most important..." would be closer to the original from my point
> of
> > > > view. I think this is important in understanding of Vygotsky's
> concept
> > of
> > > > the unit of analysis of specifically human forms of behavior.  "Real,
> > > > reality" are very rare words in Vygotsky's writing.
> > > >
> > > > Elina
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 5:49 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi, XMCA
> > > > >
> > > > > Changing subject.
> > > > >
> > > > > I had noted that we have (at least) two versions from this book
> "Tool
> > and
> > > > > sign" (Luria and Vygotsky, 1930[?]), in English... In this simple
> > quote
> > > > > bellow I can see something not so irrelevant very different, see
> > please:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I - IN THE "VYGOTSKY READER"'S VERSION:
> > > > >
> > > > > “These observations lead us to the conclusion
> > > > > that the child solves a practical task with the help of not only
> eyes
> > and
> > > > > hands, but also speech. This newly born unity of perception, speech
> > and
> > > > > action,
> > > > > which leads to the inculcation of the laws of the visual field,
> > > > constitutes
> > > > > the REAL and VITAL *object of analysis* aimed at studing the origin
> > > > > of specifically human forms of behavior” (I had a notice that this
> > > > version
> > > > > was passed from Luria for Michael Cole in past, is this information
> > > > correct,
> > > > > Mike? - then I don't know who was the translator... maybe Luria
> > himself?)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > II - IN THE "COLLECTED WORKS" (VOLUME 6) - version:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > “These observations bring us to the conclusion
> > > > > that the child solves a practical problem not only with his eyes
> and
> > > > hands,
> > > > > but
> > > > > also with the help of speech. The unity of perception that has
> > developed,
> > > > > of
> > > > > speech and action, which leads to a re-organization of the signs of
> > the
> > > > > visual
> > > > > field, also makes up a SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT *object
> > > > > of analysis* directed toward the study of the origin of
> specifically
> > > > > human forms of behavior." (p.
> > > > > 15 – translated from Russian by Marie J. Hall)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > III - IN THE RUSSIAN VERSION (VOLUME 6):
> > > > >
> > > > > "Эти наблюдения наталкивают нас на вывод, что ребенок решает
> > практическую
> > > > > задачу не только с помощью глаз и рук, но' и с помощью речи.
> > Возникшее
> > > > > единство восприятия, речи и действия, которое приводит к
> перестройке
> > > > законов
> > > > > зрительного поля, и составляет ПОДЛИННЫЙ  и  ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ  *объект
> > анализа*,
> > > > > направленного на изучение происхождения специфически человеческих
> > форм
> > > > > поведения."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ***************************************
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, its ok - (A) ПОДЛИННЫЙ 1.
> > > > > (не
> > > > > поддельный)
> > > > > authentic; genuine; (на копия) original    2. (истинный) true,
> real;
> > and
> > > > > (B)   2) ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ   1.
> > > > > превосх. ст. см. важный 1  2.
> > > > > (главный) major, paramount   важнейшая проблема —
> > > > > major problem... It seems that the Readers' version is more
> adequate,
> > is
> > > > > not it? Even so I have a doubt about the sources... This Russian
> > version
> > > > is
> > > > > not translated from the English version supposed given for Cole by
> > Luria,
> > > > is
> > > > > it? (for instance, because the original manuscripts were lost, or
> > > > something
> > > > > like this?). Somebody can tell me, in addition, if the English
> > version of
> > > > > the Reader was wrote/provided by Luria himself? Vygotsky and
> Vygotsky
> > > > wrote
> > > > > originally in Russian, or in English for international publication
> > > > trying???
> > > > >
> > > > > This things are so clear. Spite the more important is to know that
> > "newly
> > > > > born unity" is an important "object of analysis" and not exactly a
> > > > > "subordinate an very important"... (its ok). But to know something
> > about
> > > > > translations is useful because the two English versions are not so
> > > > > congruent. If this newly born unity was subordinate, what was
> > > > > supra-ordinate?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you, very much.
> > > > >
> > > > > Achills.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > QUER ANEXAR VÁRIAS FOTOS NUM EMAIL? PREPARE-SE PARA O NOVO HOTMAIL.
> > > > CLIQUE
> > > > > AQUI.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/product.aspx/view/1?ocid=Hotmail:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:QUERANEXAR80:-
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of it
> > and
> > > > it
> > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string is
> > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my violin
> > and
> > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin
> > string.
> > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > >  _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
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> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > TRANSFORME SUAS FOTOS EM EMOTICONS PARA O MESSENGER. CLIQUE AQUI PARA
> > COMEÇAR.
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
>
>
> --
> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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