RE: [xmca] about emotions

[Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>]

Thank you, very much.

It's a wonderful page, I will read with attention
I have interest in Chabrier because some of the
Vygotsky's critics against James/Lange was made
by Chabrier before (1911). It's historical curiosity of mine.

Muito obrigado.
Achilles. 

> From: aiddings@email.arizona.edu
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: Re: [xmca] about emotions
> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:56:41 +0000
> 
> Bom dia, meu lindo
> Check out this link. . .
> C
> On Nov 25, 2009, at 3:30 PM, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> 
> > I thought this was a well done review of the philosophy of emotion:
> > http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/emotion/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > 11/25/2009 12:36 AM
> > Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> >
> >
> >        To:     "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"  
> > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >        cc:
> >        Subject:        RE: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier -  
> > about emotions
> >
> >
> >
> > Oh, sure, this a problem, above all, a problem not only a postulate.
> > I don't know about Winnicott, but human objects have a meaning too,
> > this semiotic dimension of an object, by any process is converted from
> > social relations to the social structure of personality... Vygotsky
> > emphasizes ideological process in human emotion constitutions, for
> > instance the difference between cellos in the Mussulman culture and
> > in occidental culture... And even historical transformations in our  
> > way
> > to feel something... including love... This seems to be an interesting
> > approach, because seems to trace a kind of anthropological view to
> > the question. Not only our tools, actions and signs historically
> > developed,
> > but our emotions too, in a systemic and inter-functional set. These
> > are some ideas that pass through me reading this chapter. But most
> > part of time Vygotsky is criticizing Descartes, James/Lange, Freud,
> > Scheler/Lotze... and his own affirmative position is only announced.
> > Winnicott can be a good contribution, I don´t know, how important
> > is the culture and the history to Winniccot? These transitional  
> > objetcs
> > chances only in form retaining the unconscious contends? Or the un-
> > conscious contends can change ideologically, culturally and  
> > historically?
> > How constitutional can be history, culture and ideology in human  
> > feelings?
> > The sample of Alighieri is very interesting... How many social process
> > are important in love, for instance... not immediated ones, has you  
> > say,
> > but mediated process... Its complex, Vygotsky refuses the "peripheral
> > hypothesis, than the central, properly human, neuro-functional  
> > formations
> > will take a decisive role em the entire process... I don´t now, I only
> > have a problem, not sufficiently organized of course. I had read about
> > "perezhivanie" and its metodologycal role as "dynamic unit"... and
> > emotions
> > are close, even they are not the same.
> >
> > Thank you, Andy.
> > Best wishes.
> > Achilles.
> >
> >> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:09:03 +1100
> >> From: ablunden@mira.net
> >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about emotions
> >>
> >> Achilles, this is a fascinating problem, isn't it? It's
> >> kinda way out of my area, but can I just offer a couple of
> >> innane observations from my own remote point of view?
> >>
> >> 1. We should think of the body as an artifact which as such
> >> plays the same mediating role in consciousness as do other
> >> artifacts. We have a thought, our stomach tenses up, we feel
> >> that tension in the stomach.  Thus the emotional reaction in
> >> our guts mediates our feeling about the thought. etc.
> >>
> >> 2. Donald Winnicott's current of psychoanalysis for all its
> >> faults brings Freud much closer to CHAT by his study of
> >> (transitional) objects which act as mediating elements for
> >> us, bearers of affect and association. Same kind of thing as
> >> 1., but the artifact is external to the body, but has
> >> pesonal meaning.
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
> >>> Some quotes, from Vygotsky
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Little attention has been given to this aspect of the problem  
> >>> because
> > the problem
> >>> of man did not at all arise before contemporary psychology. But from
> > the very
> >>> beginning, even the authors of the theory and their critics  
> >>> understood
> > that in the
> >>> visceral hypothesis, they were speaking in essence of the animal
> > nature of human
> >>> emotions. We will cite Chabrier, who advanced this idea in the most
> > complete form.
> >>> Chabrier says that with this problem, we penetrate into the heart of
> > the problem
> >>> and touch on the major objection that rises against the peripheral
> > theory. When
> >>> we are speaking about instincts, we have before us an absolutely and
> > invariably
> >>> established mechanism, which is activated automatically as soon as  
> >>> an
> > appropriate
> >>> stimulation appears. It is possible that this is true also with
> > respect to the primitive
> >>> emotions of the child, but it cannot be the same with respect to the
> > usual emotions
> >>> of adults. (Vygotsky, 1999, p. 206)
> >>>
> >>> Chabrier completely justifiably refers to the fact that a feeling of
> > hunger, usually
> >>> considered in the group of lower bodily feelings in civilized man,  
> >>> is
> > already a
> >>> fine feeling from the point of view of the nomenclature of James,  
> >>> that
> > the simple
> >>> need of food can acquire a religious sense when it leads to the
> > appearance of a
> >>> symbolic rite of mystical communication between man and God. And
> > conversely,
> >>> a religious feeling, usually considered as a purely spiritual  
> >>> emotion,
> > in pious cannibals
> >>> bringing human sacrifices to the gods, can scarcely he referred to  
> >>> the
> > group
> >>> of higher emotions. Consequently, there is no emotion that by nature
> > would be
> >>> independent of the body and not connected with it. James' book, The
> > VrJrieties of
> >>> Religious Experience, shows incontrovertibly the extent to which
> > higher feelings are
> >>> closely connected with all the fibers of our body. (Vygotsky,  
> >>> 1999, p.
> > 207)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Separating emotions from the development of a system of ideas and
> > establishing
> >>> their dependence exclusively on organic structures, James inevitably
> > comes
> >>> to the fatalistic conception of emotions which encompasses animals  
> >>> and
> > man
> >>> equally. The serious differences that human emotions display  
> >>> depending
> > on the
> >>> era, the degree of civilization, the difference between mystical
> > adoration of a knight
> >>> for his lady and the noble gallantry of the seventeenth century,
> > remain unexplained
> >>> from the point of view of this theory. Chabrier says, if we imagine
> > the infinitely
> >>> rich nature of the poorest emotion, if we pay less attention to the
> > imaginary psychology
> >>> of single-celled organisms than to the remarkable analysis of
> > novelists and
> >>> writers, if we simply make use of valuable data supplied by
> > observations of people
> >>> around us, we cannot but admit the complete failure of the  
> >>> peripheral
> > theory. Actually,
> >>> it is impossible to admit that simple perception of a female
> > silhouette automatically
> >>> evoked an endless series of organic reactions of which could be born
> > love
> >>> such as the love of Dante for Beatrice if we do not previously  
> >>> assume
> > the whole
> >>> ensemble of theological, political, esthetic, and scientific ideas
> > that comprised the
> >>> consciousness of the genius, AJighieri. (Vygosky, 1999, p. 207)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I have atached before, to you see something, but perhaps with these
> > direct quotes
> >>> you can tell me more about... Mainlly the question about historical,
> > cultural ideological
> >>> constitution of human emotions... If the development of this could  
> >>> not
> > be looking for
> >>> in Past, any suggestions about clues in present and future are very
> > welcome too.
> >>>
> >>> Thank you very much.
> >>> Achilles
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> >>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about emotions
> >>>> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:00:07 +0000
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Oh, incredible! Thank you very much. You are a "power plant",
> >>>> always working.
> >>>>
> >>>> Oh, "thick" have many meanings, I see. But, if it is about number
> >>>> of pages, there are 157 pages.... according my Google sources...
> >>>>
> >>>> Then you see, please, what must I do to pay the order.
> >>>>
> >>>> Muito obrigado.
> >>>> Achilles.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:03:23 -0800
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about emotions
> >>>>> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> >>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> CC: VEER@fsw.leidenuniv.nl
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Achilles!!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Voila!!   The book is in library at UC Berkeley. I have ordered  
> >>>>> it.
> > Lets see
> >>>>> how thick it is.
> >>>>> :-)
> >>>>> mike
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:49 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I cannot find a thing, Achilles.
> >>>>>> Lets see if we can elicit some help.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Rene-- Do you know of this work? Is it of enduring signicance?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> >>>>>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi XMCA,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> How are you? I wish fine.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I was studding the Vygotsky's "Teaching about emotions"
> >>>>>>> and at the chapter 18 (see atached) I find very interesting
> >>>>>>> mentions to Chabrier - (I guess Joseph François Chabrier that
> >>>>>>> wrote "Les émotions et les états organiques" in 1911). The
> >>>>>>> contributions from Chabrier are linked with Vygotsky's concerns
> >>>>>>> for criticize dualistic views about emotions, and to understand
> >>>>>>> actual relations between emotions and
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> - consciousness
> >>>>>>> - culture
> >>>>>>> - ideology
> >>>>>>> - history
> >>>>>>> - and personality
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I search a lot for Chabrier, but there was practically nothing.
> >>>>>>> Nothing in Amazon, nothing in Google books. And French Libraries
> >>>>>>> don't send to Brazil.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Somebody have any suggestion, please? Any useful kind of service
> >>>>>>> to legally obtain the book? Some kind of "East View" to French
> > resources?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thank you very much.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Achilles
> >>>>>>> from Brazil.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
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> >> -- 
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> >> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> >> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> >>
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