Re: [xmca] Micro-hermeneutic process

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Very interesting, Achilles, thanks You!
mike

On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> I
> perceive the problem of the oil only when take consciousness that all
> animals
> are equally sad spite their different positions in Evolution. There was two
> Cartesian vectorial axis. But the
> horizontal did not shows exactly the diachronic line (as is more common) –
> it is
> the vertical axis that shows the diachronic change (the older on
> bottom and newer at top). And in the horizontal axis all them
> are in the same time live (micro-diachronic line, but you can consider
> synchronic),
> going together to a bad common future. My first perception of the oil was
> not
> because black color, it is so common this pictures with gestalt pictures be
> black and white, that black was not so important for the oil… But I
> perceive
> the drop in Pelican… And at first glance coulde be a kind of “Tear” and I
> had
> note that nobody was happy… But no… A tear would not be at that place… it
> was
> the oil… :-(
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nice experiencing to me. Thank you very
> much…
> Achilles.
>
>
> > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 13:04:56 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Micro-hermeneutic process
> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > That is totally great, Achilles. I am collecting all the responses and
> will
> > put them together. You started with a conceptual orientation to evolution
> so
> > you read from bottom to top. At first the pelican was puzzling as the top
> > bird but then something happened and the idea of oil came to you, and
> then
> > your conceptual frame changed again.
> >
> > What about PERception? I will not summarize my own journey in this note,
> but
> > it took a LONG time before i saw what at the bottom, where the turtle is,
> > the black areas now look like plumes of oil coming out of the ocean
> floor.
> >
> > I am not sure about the politics of the whole thing. I wonder if the
> artist
> > was simply commenting on the plight of wildlife in the oil spill or
> making a
> > big political statement -- I am guessing the former. Americans do not
> make a
> > big (only a little, anti-Obama) political argument about the oil spill,
> > perhaps because THEY are guilty of massive overconsumption of oil.
> >
> > Glad it was a good experience. Nothing to be ashamed about. Why should
> the
> > macro-political context be first in your mind?
> >
> > micro-hermeneutics is a GREAT term! It is also microgenesis of a concept
> > that is tangled up with changing perception as well.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Hey Mike, here attached is my intro-extrospection about the picture.
> I'm
> > > surprised with my results, but I swear I didn't burn the evidences of
> my
> > > silliness... :-)
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Achilles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 18:57:25 +0000
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you very much.
> > > >
> > > > I am looking at - high now. Give me some time in order to not talk
> things
> > > without some reflection. I can say, in advance, that I appreciate the
> > > methodological propose... Is intellectuality interesting and
> affectively
> > > pleasant...
> > > > See you soon. Thank you again.
> > > > Best.
> > > >
> > > > *******|||||||||||
> > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 11:41:31 -0700
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >
> > > > > OK, I will read when possible. Soon I hope!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is the link to the image. My interest is in your introspective
> > > > > microgenetic process of interpreting it.
> > > > > mike
> > > > > -------------
> > > > > The New Yorker has done it again. If you have a minute, take a look
> at
> > > this
> > > > > week's cover.
> > > > > In the process of looking new meanings will emerge. How they emerge
> > > appears
> > > > > to differ from person to person. I would REALLY appreciate a
> > > microgenetic
> > > > > introspective report from anyone with the time. I have now
> collected
> > > three
> > > > > examples of such, including my own and all three are different.
> > > > >
> > > > > I sure wish I could get to ask Vygotsky and Eistenshtein to do this
> and
> > > > > report to us about it!!
> > > > > mike
> > > > >
> > > > > http://archives.newyorker.com/?i=2010-07
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I could not look at, until now... Unfortunately I had not read
> most
> > > of XMCA
> > > > > > topics last times, because I was working at a little paper here,
> I'm
> > > > > > suffering a lot, because the publisher cuts in my original...
> well...
> > > Poor
> > > > > > Vygotsky - if me, being nobody, turned so sad, I wonder how crude
> > > must had
> > > > > > been for him, that was a genius :-) ... And so, I don't know what
> is
> > > > > > happening by other communication means as well. Can you point me
> some
> > > link?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See, here are the three versions with the page numbers. I put
> > > attached too,
> > > > > > in case of problems with text configuration.... (some typing
> mistakes
> > > will
> > > > > > be my fault, please forgive me in advance)...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > – At the Reader
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “These
> > > > > > observations lead us to the conclusion that the child solves a
> > > practical
> > > > > > task
> > > > > > with the help of not only eyes and hands, but also speech. This
> newly
> > > born
> > > > > > unity of perception, speech and action, which leads to the
> > > inculcation of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > laws of the visual field, constitutes the real and vital object
> of
> > > analysis
> > > > > > aimed
> > > > > > at studing the origin of specifically human forms of behavior”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (p. 109)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > II
> > > > > > – At “Collected Works” - Volume 6.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “These
> > > > > > observations bring us to the conclusion that the child solves a
> > > practical
> > > > > > problem not only with his eyes and hands, but also with the help
> of
> > > speech.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > unity of perception that has developed, of speech and action,
> which
> > > leads
> > > > > > to a
> > > > > > re-organization of the signs of the visual field, also makes up a
> > > > > > subordinate
> > > > > > and very important object of analysis directed toward the study
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > origin of specifically human forms of behavior."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (p. 15 – translation from Russian -
> > > > > > Marie J. Hall)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > III - The Russian
> > > > > > 1984 - Tom 6
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  "Эти
> > > > > > наблюдения наталкивают нас на вывод, что ребёнок решает
> практическую
> > > задачу
> > > > > > не
> > > > > > только с помощью глаз и рук, но' и с помощью речи. Возникшее
> > >  единство
> > > > > > восприятия, речи и действия, которое приводит
> > > > > > к перестройке законов  зрительного поля,
> > > > > > и составляет подлинный и важнейший объект анализа, направленного
> на
> > > > > > изучение происхождения
> > > > > > специфически человеческих форм поведения."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (p. 23 – Pedagogika Publisher)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 11:12:31 -0700
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > > To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I need to read the full text again, Achilles. What page does it
> > > appear on
> > > > > > in LSV's collected works in English and in the "ReadingVygotsky"
> > > volume?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am somewhat disappointed that people on XMCA have responded to
> that
> > > New
> > > > > > Yorker image at such a "macro" level. Did you get a chance to
> look at
> > > it? Of
> > > > > > course, your perception will be changed by what has been written,
> but
> > > still,
> > > > > > it is interesting. I will write about it later after others have
> had
> > > a
> > > > > > chance to reply, explaining why I find it so interesting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS-- I am sorry i missed information that you received the
> emotions
> > > book.
> > > > > > too much email, too much work, my usual problem.
> > > > > > Its nice to have a three day weekend!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes... but I'm not only criticizing the poor conditions of
> American
> > > > > > Editorial Endeavors - of course outside Russia, in USA are the
> most
> > > > > > important publishers for Vygotsky's works in the world, and I'm
> very
> > > > > > thankful for you all... BUT => I was trying to make sense for
> that
> > > unity
> > > > > > "action-perception-speech" maybe could really not be the "more"
> > > important
> > > > > > unity, but an important one, spite not the more important... But
> let
> > > it be.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, thank you very much, that book is very interesting some
> critics
> > > from
> > > > > > Vygotsky to James and Langue are almost literally in that book..
> But
> > > I don't
> > > > > > finish yet... I can try to make a rusume to pass you, if could be
> > > useful for
> > > > > > you... I don't what happens for Chabrier, I guess a sudden
> death...
> > > There
> > > > > > are no clues about his biography... and no titles beyond that, --
> In
> > > Google
> > > > > > searches, and other internet databases... I liked him...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you very much. :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > P.S. I had answered your question in other e-mail, if you see
> there
> > > later
> > > > > > is the almost the same I said here. Best!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 10:24:49 -0700
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Who knows, Achilles. I do not know the person or why she confused
> > > podlinni
> > > > > > with podchinit! (I am guessing). Maybe she was poorly paid and in
> a
> > > hurry.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Did you get that french book on emotions???
> > > > > > mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Exactly, I know, the "subordinate" is from American volume 6
> (1999) -
> > > Marie
> > > > > > J. Hall , not mine. My question was why she did this? She didn't
> have
> > > a
> > > > > > dictionary as good as you have???
> > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 09:57:58 -0700
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > > > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > > > To:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *Podlinni is not subordinate. The three definitions given in
> the
> > > big
> > > > > > Russian
> > > > > > > dictionary are:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. being original, not copied
> > > > > > >  2. real
> > > > > > > 3. the most real and true
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > genuine works well as a gloss on all of these.
> > > > > > > *vazneishii i would translate as *most important*
> > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you very much, Mike.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I only didn't understand that important difference in volume
> 6 -
> > > > > > English
> > > > > > > > version (the one that I have is from 1999) and the Russian
> itself
> > > > > > (1984)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT *object of analysis*
> > > > > > > > X
> > > > > > > > ПОДЛИННЫЙ и ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ *объект анализа*,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Except "subordinate" in English is not as "subordinado" in
> > > > > > Portuguese...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That unity ("newly born"), action-perception-speech is one
> > > important
> > > > > > object
> > > > > > > > of analysis, among others, or it is the more important at
> this
> > > > > > ontogenetic
> > > > > > > > moment? Even I suspect this "unity" is not a "unity of
> analysis"
> > > > > > because if
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > it is the "object of analysis", how can a process be at the
> same
> > > time
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > object of analysis and the own unity to understand this own
> > > object???
> > > > > > For me
> > > > > > > > this unity seems to be something more like a "functional
> unity"
> > > (not
> > > > > > exactly
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > in posterior Luria's sense for the 3 functional unities, of
> > > course) or
> > > > > > > > better "inter-functional unity" -- maybe this "unity" can be
> > > called
> > > > > > only a
> > > > > > > > new "functional system" more precisely... among others...
> action
> > > and
> > > > > > speech,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ok... but why only this two plus "perception"... can not be
> > > > > > > > "action-speech-attention", "action-speech-thinking",
> > > > > > > > "action-speech-will"???? In this case the not fidel
> "subordinate"
> > > could
> > > > > > be
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > even better than the Russian 1984... Please point my mistake
> in
> > > this
> > > > > > way of
> > > > > > > > reasoning...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *This is very difficult for me to follow. but fidelity works
> > > about the
> > > > > > > > same way that genuine does.*
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 08:13:59 -0700
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation
> questions...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think that the 1984 is from something luria had in Russian
> or
> > > these
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "young" guys could not have translated it into English, but I
> am
> > > > > > unsure.
> > > > > > > > mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sure,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > my question is because can happens situations in which a
> Russian
> > > > > > edition is
> > > > > > > > translation from a English original publication wrote in
> English
> > > by the
> > > > > > own
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Russian authors. Then... I am curious about the source of the
> > > 1984's
> > > > > > Russian
> > > > > > > > edition... If it is published from some "original"
> manuscripts
> > > from
> > > > > > 1930 or
> > > > > > > > translated based in your american English version, published
> in
> > > the
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Vygotsky Reader"s version... it is all...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > . For instance the is a text from Vygotsky originally
> publishede
> > > in
> > > > > > English
> > > > > > > > about Thought and Schizophrenia... that I guess there is no
> > > Russian
> > > > > > original
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > version anymore. Spite this must be Russian versions today,
> > > translated
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > the English I presume... There is no such situations???
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > **************
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 15:05:13 -0700
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation
> questions...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Well, I can confirm that they are from the same source
> because
> > > I got
> > > > > > this
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > from Luria and my copy had a couple of his hand written
> changes
> > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > translation on it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It is supposed to have been written for an American
> > > publication, but
> > > > > > was
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > published.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have been told by the parties involved that Peter
> Tulviste
> > > and
> > > > > > Kolya
> > > > > > > > > Goldberg translated the version I saw. Peter has moved on
> to
> > > more
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > things and Kolya was rumored to be in Poland at a
> Neuropsych
> > > conf.
> > > > > > (And i
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > could be misinformed, and so could anyone, given the
> complex
> > > > > > > > circumstances
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > between 1930 and 1977!!).
> > > > > > > > > mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > > > > > > > bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately that I do not know for sure
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Bella, this is what I had suposed...But this
> > > Russian
> > > > > > from
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tom 6
> > > > > > > > > > > is really from the1930 version, do you confirm?
> > > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much.Achilles.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 19:05:33 +0300
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation
> > > questions...
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > but the "inculcation of the laws of the visual field"
> > >  does not
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > correspond
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > ..."перестройка законов зрительного поля"
> > > > > > > > > > > > which is reorganization of the laws(or rules) of the
> > > visual
> > > > > > field
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > so both translations are far from ideal
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > n Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Elina Lampert-Shepel <
> > > > > > > > > > ellampert@gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Achills,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am in a rush to get into the airport, so please
> > > forgive me
> > > > > > for
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > > analysis.The first sentence is fine in both
> > > translations. But
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > agree
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you, Readers' version is more adequate in the
> second
> > > > > > sentence.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Genuine
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the most important..." would be closer to the
> original
> > > from
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > view. I think this is important in understanding of
> > > > > > Vygotsky's
> > > > > > > > > > concept
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the unit of analysis of specifically human forms of
> > > behavior.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >  "Real,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > reality" are very rare words in Vygotsky's writing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Elina
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 5:49 AM, Achilles Delari
> Junior
> > > <
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, XMCA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Changing subject.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had noted that we have (at least) two versions
> from
> > > this
> > > > > > book
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Tool
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sign" (Luria and Vygotsky, 1930[?]), in
> English... In
> > > this
> > > > > > > > simple
> > > > > > > > > > > quote
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > bellow I can see something not so irrelevant very
> > > > > > different,
> > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > please:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I - IN THE "VYGOTSKY READER"'S VERSION:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > “These observations lead us to the conclusion
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that the child solves a practical task with the
> help
> > > of not
> > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > > eyes
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > hands, but also speech. This newly born unity of
> > > > > > perception,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > speech
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > action,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > which leads to the inculcation of the laws of the
> > > visual
> > > > > > field,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > constitutes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the REAL and VITAL *object of analysis* aimed at
> > > studing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > origin
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > of specifically human forms of behavior” (I had a
> > > notice
> > > > > > that
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > was passed from Luria for Michael Cole in past,
> is
> > > this
> > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > correct,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike? - then I don't know who was the
> translator...
> > > maybe
> > > > > > Luria
> > > > > > > > > > > himself?)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > II - IN THE "COLLECTED WORKS" (VOLUME 6) -
> version:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > “These observations bring us to the conclusion
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that the child solves a practical problem not
> only
> > > with his
> > > > > > > > eyes
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > hands,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > also with the help of speech. The unity of
> perception
> > > that
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > > developed,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > speech and action, which leads to a
> re-organization
> > > of the
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > signs of
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > visual
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > field, also makes up a SUBORDINATE and very
> IMPORTANT
> > > > > > *object
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > of analysis* directed toward the study of the
> origin
> > > of
> > > > > > > > > > specifically
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > human forms of behavior." (p.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 15 – translated from Russian by Marie J. Hall)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > III - IN THE RUSSIAN VERSION (VOLUME 6):
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Эти наблюдения наталкивают нас на вывод, что
> ребенок
> > > > > > решает
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > практическую
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > задачу не только с помощью глаз и рук, но' и с
> > > помощью
> > > > > > речи.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Возникшее
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > единство восприятия, речи и действия, которое
> > > приводит к
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > перестройке
> > > > > > > > > > > > > законов
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > зрительного поля, и составляет ПОДЛИННЫЙ  и
> > >  ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ
> > > > > >  *объект
> > > > > > > > > > > анализа*,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > направленного на изучение происхождения
> специфически
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > человеческих
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > форм
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > поведения."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***************************************
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, its ok - (A) ПОДЛИННЫЙ 1.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > (не
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > поддельный)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > authentic; genuine; (на копия) original    2.
> > > (истинный)
> > > > > > true,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > real;
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > (B)   2) ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ   1.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > превосх. ст. см. важный 1  2.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > (главный) major, paramount   важнейшая проблема —
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > major problem... It seems that the Readers'
> version
> > > is more
> > > > > > > > > > adequate,
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not it? Even so I have a doubt about the
> sources...
> > > This
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Russian
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not translated from the English version supposed
> > > given for
> > > > > > Cole
> > > > > > > > by
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Luria,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it? (for instance, because the original
> manuscripts
> > > were
> > > > > > lost,
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > something
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > like this?). Somebody can tell me, in addition,
> if
> > > the
> > > > > > English
> > > > > > > > > > > version of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Reader was wrote/provided by Luria himself?
> > > Vygotsky
> > > > > > and
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Vygotsky
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > originally in Russian, or in English for
> > > international
> > > > > > > > publication
> > > > > > > > > > > > > trying???
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This things are so clear. Spite the more
> important is
> > > to
> > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > "newly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > born unity" is an important "object of analysis"
> and
> > > not
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > exactly a
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "subordinate an very important"... (its ok). But
> to
> > > know
> > > > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > translations is useful because the two English
> > > versions are
> > > > > > not
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > congruent. If this newly born unity was
> subordinate,
> > > what
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > supra-ordinate?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, very much.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Achills.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > QUER ANEXAR VÁRIAS FOTOS NUM EMAIL? PREPARE-SE
> PARA O
> > > NOVO
> > > > > > > > HOTMAIL.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > CLIQUE
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > AQUI.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/product.aspx/view/1?ocid=Hotmail:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:QUERANEXAR80:-
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I
> twist
> > > one
> > > > > > end
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > of it
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what
> a
> > > violin
> > > > > > > > string is
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it,
> fix it
> > > in my
> > > > > > > > violin
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free
> to be
> > > a
> > > > > > violin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > string.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > TRANSFORME SUAS FOTOS EM EMOTICONS PARA O MESSENGER.
> CLIQUE
> > > AQUI
> > > > > > PARA
> > > > > > > > > > > COMEÇAR.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> http://ilm.windowslive.com.br/?ocid=ILM:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:TRANSFORME78:-
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > O INTERNET EXPLORER 8 AJUDA VOCÊ A FICAR LONGE DOS VÍRUS.
> > > DESCUBRA
> > > > > > COMO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > PREPARE-SE: O SEU HOTMAIL VAI FICAR MELHOR DO QUE NUNCA.
> CLIQUE E
> > > VEJA
> > > > > > AS
> > > > > > > > NOVIDADES.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/product.aspx/view/1?ocid=Hotmail:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:PREPARE-SE83:-
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > O INTERNET EXPLORER 8 AJUDA VOCÊ A FICAR LONGE DOS VÍRUS.
> DESCUBRA
> > > COMO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > O INTERNET EXPLORER 8 DÁ DICAS DE SEGURANÇA PARA VOCÊ SAIBA MAIS!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > TRANSFORME SUAS FOTOS EM EMOTICONS PARA O MESSENGER. CLIQUE AQUI
> PARA
> > > > > > COMEÇAR.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> http://ilm.windowslive.com.br/?ocid=ILM:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:TRANSFORME78:-
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > PREPARE-SE: O SEU HOTMAIL VAI FICAR MELHOR DO QUE NUNCA. CLIQUE E
> VEJA AS
> > > NOVIDADES.
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/product.aspx/view/1?ocid=Hotmail:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:PREPARE-SE83:-
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > ACESSE SEUS EMAILS DE QUALQUER LUGAR PELO SEU CELULAR. CLIQUE E VEJA
> COMO
> > > FAZER ISSO.
> > >
> > >
> http://celular.windowslive.com.br/hotmail.asp?produto=Hotmail&utm_source=Live_Hotmail&utm_medium=Tagline&utm_content=ACESSESEUS85&utm_campaign=MobileServices
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> O INTERNET EXPLORER 8 AJUDA VOCÊ A FICAR LONGE DOS VÍRUS. DESCUBRA COMO.
> _________________________________________________________________
> ACESSE SEUS EMAILS DE QUALQUER LUGAR PELO SEU CELULAR. CLIQUE E VEJA COMO
> FAZER ISSO.
>
> http://celular.windowslive.com.br/hotmail.asp?produto=Hotmail&utm_source=Live_Hotmail&utm_medium=Tagline&utm_content=ACESSESEUS85&utm_campaign=MobileServices
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca