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As you move through the text, each terms seems sometimes to be used in a technical fashion within a theoretical framework, while at other times they are used in common sense terms. My interpretation. let others comment if they care to. mike On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 9:31 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote: > Where do you see this, Mike, the wobbliness of "acivity" and "operation"? > Remember that for ANL, "activity" is inclusive of all units of activity, > molar, meso and micro. So he will be talking about "activity" long before > creatures get to participate in "activities." > > Andy > > mike cole wrote: > >> That is a fascinating text, Andy. but both the terms activity and >> operation appear to wobble in their usages/meaning over the course of the >> text. Its a really interesting question. In in beginning was the dead as an >> underlying assumption that carries a lot with it! >> mike >> >> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 9:02 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto: >> lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> That's great Andy. thanks. >> Is this what you were referring to, Manfred? >> mike >> >> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> Mike, I attach pp 154-180 from A N Leontyev's "Development of >> Mind" where he introduces the concept of "operation" as part >> of a "second stage of evolution of the psyche". >> >> Full text at http://www.erythrospress.com/**store/leontyev.html<http://www.erythrospress.com/store/leontyev.html> >> >> Andy >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> Yes, thanks Andy: OPERATIONS are something like automated >> actions, subject to conditions not goals. >> mike >> >> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Andy Blunden >> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote: >> >> "operations", you mean. >> a >> mike cole wrote: >> >> What is your understanding of this issue, Manfred. >> In the text >> most used by Americans, *actions* >> are something like automated actions, subject to >> condions not >> goals. Components of actions. >> >> What does it mean, ontogenetically, for operations >> to preceed >> actions? How does this relate to the classic >> Leontiev formulation? >> >> Mike >> >> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Andy Blunden >> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>> wrote: >> >> Michael, here is what Manfred said in his message: >> >> "A young infant has not already established a >> goal-driven level of >> actions. In the first weeks one can observe the >> acquisition of >> first >> operations and of first expectations what >> should >> happen. But these >> expectations are not yet represented as a >> mental image >> about the >> desired future states. This is the product >> of the >> acquisition of a >> sign system which enables the person to >> evoke and >> imagine a future >> state in the here and now and to start to >> strive for >> it. And for >> this starting point, not only to imagine >> different >> future states, >> but also to select one of them and to start >> to strive >> for it, >> emotional processes come into play that >> color one of >> the imagined >> future state e.g. in a state worth striving >> for and >> that mobilize >> the executive power to start striving for >> it. However, >> the ability >> to form such notions of goals and to >> transform them >> into actions is >> not something that occurs automatically. It >> emerges in >> a long-drawn >> ontogenetic learning process in which the >> attainment of >> goals >> through actions is tried, tested, and >> increasingly >> optimized." >> I make no claim to be a psychologist, Michael, >> but it always >> seemed to me that ascribing a knowledge of the >> world to >> neonates >> would be a hard position to sustain. We have >> to find some >> other >> way of understanding the behaviour of neonates >> and infants >> other >> than presuming that they form a goal and then >> take appropriate >> premeditated action to realise that goal. >> >> An "operation" is a form of behaviour which >> has the >> potential to >> be transformed into an action, that is, for >> the subject to >> become >> consciously aware of the behaviour and subject >> it to conscious >> control. So at first I think we have to say >> that the neonate >> smiles, moves its hands around, pouts, >> squeezes, etc, etc., >> without first forming the idea "I think I will >> smile at this >> woman, and she might give me some more food" >> or any such >> thing. >> But after the relevant stimuli have been >> repeatedly >> accompanied by >> the various kinds of responses which adult >> carers provide >> to the >> child and the successful satisfaction of the >> stimuli, the >> child >> might begin to associate the behaviour with an >> object, >> accomodate >> its behaviour to the social world around them, >> and what >> began as >> an operation may be transformed into an >> action. Otherwise, >> I think >> we are imply a hell of a lot about innate >> knowledge! >> >> Andy >> >> Glassman, Michael wrote: >> >> .... But I also I think disagree with Andy >> to some >> extent. Do >> infants simply engage in operations? Is that >> possible? Isn't >> there an action tied to every operation, >> or else why >> is the >> infant doing it. I think infants >> definitely do react to >> stimuli (feedback I think can be define >> through >> information >> processing but it can also perhaps be >> defined through >> social >> cognitive theory which is more behavior >> oriented). >> But when >> they react don't they have an aim of some >> type? It >> might be >> very rudimentary but it is an aim and the >> child is >> developing >> operations to meet those aims (it also >> seems to me >> that there >> are much fuzzier boundaries between >> operations and >> actions at >> this point). >> >> >> ______________________________**____________ >> _____ >> xmca mailing list >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> >> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >> >> >> >> -- ------------------------------** >> ------------------------------**------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/**> >> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/**> >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts >> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden> >> >> >> >> -- ------------------------------** >> ------------------------------**------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/**> >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts >> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden> >> >> ______________________________**____________ >> _____ >> xmca mailing list >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >> >> >> >> > -- > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > ------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts > http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden> > > ______________________________**____________ > _____ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> > __________________________________________ _____ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca