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These files are maintained strictly for historical reference, research, and recordkeeping purposes,
and the content has not been altered or updated since archiving.
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If you require an alternative, accessible format of any information found on this site,
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And for thinking about perezhivanie, and adults being able to play, you are right, Mike -- fulcrum AND pivot give us so much to work with! I wish Vygotsky had given us one of his wonderful metaphors for perezhivanie ... Beth On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com> wrote: > Larry, the connection with metaphor is fantastic for helping us to think > about playworlds as process. > > Anna, I think I agree with your distinction between pivot and metaphor ... > I will return to your thesis and then come back to this. > > THe funny thing about the robin coming up in this discussion is that > Monica and I have been talking a lot about robins ... about Kiyo's role as > the Robin in a playworld in California: going into role in play allows you > to use the character to pivot out of yourself, is what I have been thinking > about as I work on the Fakhrutdinova piece on Perezhivanie that Mike sent > around. > > Beth > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>wrote: > >> On 10 April 2013 14:44, Christine Schweighart <schweighartc@gmail.com >> >wrote: >> >> > ... >> > >> > Robins can be amazing , Huw, one came up to within 20cm of my hands >> > yesterday - it was looking right up at me ( so I thought), but it's >> other >> > eye was looking for worms as I was digging. This took me by surprise - >> > aesthetic experience often has surprise?- anyway - the robin was quite >> sure >> > of itself and not 'tame' or 'domesticated', any more than I on my >> > allotment was 'tamed' or domesticated by the robin. >> > Christine. >> > >> > >> I think you have some of my gist of *just*. Don't forget the work-rate >> too! :) >> >> I think the humble robin is good mediator for explaining British culture >> to >> civilized Europeans. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com >> > >wrote: >> > >> > > On 10 April 2013 02:26, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <anamshane@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > > The interesting thing is that actually the meaning of a "horse" is >> not >> > > > "detached" from the actual concept of the horse! >> > > > Rather it is used without the horse being present! The horse is >> still >> > > > imagined! >> > > > >> > > > >> > > The play affords the awareness of the idea as distinct from the >> thing(s) >> > > themselves. Such a distinction is considered necessary prior to >> > > formulating an explicit conception of them. >> > > >> > > >> > > > But the "stick" can be anything: a stick, a broom, a chair (as in a >> > > > Serbian children' song), a carpet, a small (or bigger) block. It can >> > even >> > > > be totally absent -- just present in the movements of the child. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Not, if I recall correctly, according to Vygotsky. They need to have >> > some >> > > "fit for purpose", a teacup may already have its purpose assigned >> which >> > > would conflict. But fluidity of rules is an ingredient in play. >> > > >> > > >> > > > What do you think? >> > > > >> > > > Ana >> > > > ____________________________________ >> > > > Ana Marjanovic-Shane >> > > > Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal >> > > > Associate Professor of Education >> > > > Chestnut Hill College >> > > > Emails: anamshane@gmail.com >> > > > shaneam@chc.edu >> > > > Phone: 267-334-2905 >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > On 9 April 2013 21:33, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > >> *From the OED: * >> > > > >> * >> > > > >> * >> > > > >> >> > > > >> *Pivot ...A short shaft or pin, usually of metal and pointed, >> > forming >> > > > the >> > > > >> centre on which a mechanism turns or oscillates, as the pin of a >> > > hinge, >> > > > or >> > > > >> the end of an axle...* >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> *Fulcrum: A prop or support; now only spec. in Mech. the point >> > against >> > > > >> which a lever is placed to get purchase or upon which it turns >> or is >> > > > >> supported.* >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > Pivot affords the verb, as an aside, which is the doing part of >> the >> > > > stick. >> > > > > >> > > > > No exotic birds over here, *just* robins and pivoting fulcrums. >> > > > > >> > > > > Huw >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> ** >> > > > >> >> > > > >> *What an interesting pair of terms, especially in the context of >> > your >> > > > >> interests, Beth.* >> > > > >> >> > > > >> * >> > > > >> * >> > > > >> >> > > > >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Huw Lloyd < >> > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com >> > > > >>> wrote: >> > > > >> >> > > > >>> On 9 April 2013 15:40, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < >> bella.kotik@gmail.com >> > > >> > > > >> wrote: >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>>> fulcrum seems OK >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>> Are you translating the paragraph or the term/word? >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>> The English text is using pivot in about three different ways in >> > > > relation >> > > > >>> to the paragraph and the paragraph's object. >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>> Fulcrum does not capture this because it does not connote the >> > prizing >> > > > of >> > > > >>> the idea of the horse away from the horse itself, which one can >> do >> > > > with a >> > > > >>> stick (as a lever or crowbar). >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>> Best, >> > > > >>> Huw >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christine Schweighart < >> > > > >>>> schweighartc@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>>>> I can't read Russian, I'm guessing you are looking to express >> a >> > > > >> meaning >> > > > >>>>> something like 'fulcrum' - not the lever or pivot itself as a >> > > thing. >> > > > >>>>> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/fulcrum >> > > > >>>>> Christine >> > > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < >> > > > >>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com >> > > > >>>>>> wrote: >> > > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> As I mentioned he does NOT use this term rather he writes: >> > > > >>>>>> "В тот момент, когда палочка, т.е. вещь, становится опорной >> > точкой >> > > > >>> для >> > > > >>>>>> отрывания значения лошади от реальной лошади, в этот >> критический >> > > > >>> момент >> > > > >>>>>> коренным образом меняется одна из основных психологических >> > > > >> структур, >> > > > >>>>>> определяющая отношение ребенка к действительности". >> > > > >>>>>> опорная точка- >> > > > >>>>>> literally: a point of support >> > > > >>>>>> Bella >> > > > >>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Beth Ferholt < >> > bferholt@gmail.com >> > > > >> > > > >>>>> wrote: >> > > > >>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> This is all very helpful, thank you: >> > > > >>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> Is стимул-средство what Vygotsky uses in the following >> > paragraph >> > > > >>> from >> > > > >>>>> the >> > > > >>>>>>> chapter on play, or another word, and is стимул-средство is >> > best >> > > > >>>>>> translated >> > > > >>>>>>> as a type of tool? Which type -- ? >> > > > >>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> "Thought is separated from objects because a piece of wood >> > begins >> > > > >>> to >> > > > >>>>> be a >> > > > >>>>>>> doll and a stick becomes a horse. Action according to rules >> > > > >> begins >> > > > >>> to >> > > > >>>>> be >> > > > >>>>>>> determined by ideas, not by objects. This is such a >> reversal of >> > > > >> the >> > > > >>>>>> child's >> > > > >>>>>>> relationship to the real, immediate, concrete situation >> that it >> > > > >> is >> > > > >>>> hard >> > > > >>>>>> to >> > > > >>>>>>> evaluate its full significance. The child does not do this >> all >> > at >> > > > >>>> once. >> > > > >>>>>> It >> > > > >>>>>>> is terribly difficult for a child to sever thought (the >> meaning >> > > > >> of >> > > > >>> a >> > > > >>>>>> word) >> > > > >>>>>>> from object. Play is a transitional stage in this >> direction. At >> > > > >>> that >> > > > >>>>>>> critical moment when a stick - i.e., an object - becomes a >> > pivot >> > > > >>> for >> > > > >>>>>>> severing the meaning of horse from a real horse, one of the >> > basic >> > > > >>>>>>> psychological structures determining the child's >> relationship >> > to >> > > > >>>>> reality >> > > > >>>>>> is >> > > > >>>>>>> radically altered." >> > > > >>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> Beth >> > > > >>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < >> > > > >>>>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com >> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote: >> > > > >>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> In the original paper on play I have not found a special >> term >> > > > >> for >> > > > >>>> it, >> > > > >>>>>> but >> > > > >>>>>>>> in further developments it seems that стимул-средство >> would be >> > > > >> a >> > > > >>>>> proper >> > > > >>>>>>>> term >> > > > >>>>>>>> Bella >> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:38 AM, mike cole < >> lchcmike@gmail.com >> > > >> > > > >>>>> wrote: >> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> Yo!! >> > > > >>>>>>>>> Would one of our Russian colleagues who can put their >> hands >> > > > >> on >> > > > >>>> the >> > > > >>>>>>>> Russian >> > > > >>>>>>>>> essay please tell us what the russian word for pivot >> Vygotsky >> > > > >>>> uses? >> > > > >>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> mike >> > > > >>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane < >> > > > >>>>>>>> anamshane@gmail.com >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >> > > > >>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Dear Beth and Monica, >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I think that you should see how would you call a knife >> and >> > > > >>> two >> > > > >>>>>>> glasses >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> that two engineer friend may use over a dinner to talk >> > > > >> about >> > > > >>> a >> > > > >>>>> new >> > > > >>>>>>>> bridge >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> they are planning to build. >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Are the knife and the glasses "carriers", "pivots", >> "place >> > > > >>>>> holders" >> > > > >>>>>>> or >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> something else? >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I like to think of them as "pivots" (for meaning) because >> > > > >>> they >> > > > >>>> do >> > > > >>>>>> not >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> CARRY meanings, for which they are used for in this >> > > > >>>> conversation. >> > > > >>>>>> In >> > > > >>>>>>>>> other >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> words, I don't think these objects are used >> metaphorically. >> > > > >>> In >> > > > >>>>>>>> metaphor, >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> you mean to say something ABOUT an object (person, event, >> > > > >>>>> concept, >> > > > >>>>>>>> etc.) >> > > > >>>>>>>>> by >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> calling it a different name. >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> "My pillow is my spaceship" -- If I said that to you, >> > > > >> imagine >> > > > >>>>> what >> > > > >>>>>>>> could >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> that mean? Many beautiful, adventurous, romantic, >> sci-tech >> > > > >>>>>>>> possibilities! >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> But when my 3 yr old son took a pillow, sat on it, >> started >> > > > >>>>> playing >> > > > >>>>>> a >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> version of the "Start Wars" and said the same utterance >> "My >> > > > >>>>> pillow >> > > > >>>>>> is >> > > > >>>>>>>> my >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> spaceship"-- it wasn't a metaphor. Just an object (pivot >> - >> > > > >> a >> > > > >>>>>> holder) >> > > > >>>>>>> to >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> play a role in populating the imagined realm. >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> In play these objects (sticks, knifes...) just hold the >> > > > >> place >> > > > >>>> of >> > > > >>>>>>> images >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> and concepts in the imagined realm -- without providing >> any >> > > > >>>>> meaning >> > > > >>>>>>>>> "ABOUT" >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> these imagined things (horses, bridges, spaceships). >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> "Carrier" is not bad -- but can be confused with >> metaphor. >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> "Pivot" is very neutral and very descriptive -- the >> meaning >> > > > >>> is >> > > > >>>>>>> "hinged" >> > > > >>>>>>>>> to >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> the object. >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> What do you think? >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Ana >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________ >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Ana Marjanovic-Shane >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Education >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Chestnut Hill College >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Emails: anamshane@gmail.com >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> shaneam@chc.edu >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Phone: 267-334-2905 >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Beth Ferholt < >> > > > >>> bferholt@gmail.com> >> > > > >>>>>>> wrote: >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Monica and I are discussing the horse/stick -- in >> Swedish >> > > > >>> the >> > > > >>>>>> stick >> > > > >>>>>>>> is >> > > > >>>>>>>>> a >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> carrier, in English a pivot, and which do people think >> > > > >> is a >> > > > >>>>>> better >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> translation?? >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> (There is a word for Pivot in Swedish but still Carrier >> > > > >> was >> > > > >>>>>> chosen >> > > > >>>>>>>> -- ) >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> THank you for the help, >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Beth >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> -- >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Beth Ferholt >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> School of Education >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> _____ >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> _____ >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >> > > > >>>>>>>>> _____ >> > > > >>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list >> > > > >>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > > >>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > > >>>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> -- >> > > > >>>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >> > > > >>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >> > > > >>>>>>>> _____ >> > > > >>>>>>>> xmca mailing list >> > > > >>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > > >>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> -- >> > > > >>>>>>> Beth Ferholt >> > > > >>>>>>> Assistant Professor >> > > > >>>>>>> School of Education >> > > > >>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> > > > >>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >> > > > >>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > >>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> > > > >>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> > > > >>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >> > > > >>>>>>> __________________________________________ >> > > > >>>>>>> _____ >> > > > >>>>>>> xmca mailing list >> > > > >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > > >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > > >>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>> -- >> > > > >>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >> > > > >>>>>> __________________________________________ >> > > > >>>>>> _____ >> > > > >>>>>> xmca mailing list >> > > > >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > > >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > > >>>>>> >> > > > >>>>> __________________________________________ >> > > > >>>>> _____ >> > > > >>>>> xmca mailing list >> > > > >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > > >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>>> -- >> > > > >>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >> > > > >>>> __________________________________________ >> > > > >>>> _____ >> > > > >>>> xmca mailing list >> > > > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>> __________________________________________ >> > > > >>> _____ >> > > > >>> xmca mailing list >> > > > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > > >>> >> > > > >> __________________________________________ >> > > > >> _____ >> > > > >> xmca mailing list >> > > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > > >> >> > > > > __________________________________________ >> > > > > _____ >> > > > > xmca mailing list >> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > > >> > > > __________________________________________ >> > > > _____ >> > > > xmca mailing list >> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > > >> > > __________________________________________ >> > > _____ >> > > xmca mailing list >> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > >> > __________________________________________ >> > _____ >> > xmca mailing list >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > >> __________________________________________ >> _____ >> xmca mailing list >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Assistant Professor > School of Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor School of Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 __________________________________________ _____ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca