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On 19 January 2012 04:23, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote: > Huw, I think I have grasped your point about the way processes can also be > structures in relation to other processes, though I don'tquite see why it > is a criticism of my view. But, moving on ... > > Your citations of the Grundrisse are a little confusing, because you break > out of the quotation from time to time with comments, and it is not at all > clear whether you are summarising Marx or criticising Marx when you do > this, or whether the quote marks have been left out inadvertantly. > > I don't see any typos there. It is an elaboration. > But can we go to a central point: the categories of "abstract" and > "concrete" are both applied to concepts (whether subjective or objective) > but in general both are description of concepts, and nothing in this > excerpt from Marx concerns a contrast between thought and matter: rather he > is talking about abstract ideas and concrete ideas. So I think your > introduction of the category of the "material" into the section on the > "Method of Political Economy" is quite misleading. Marx makes no reference > to "material" here. > > Can you explain please? > > My understanding is that a concrete conception, as referred to here, by Marx, refers to conceptions that authentically mirror the concrete, the material, the phenomena. All systems comprise of material relations. I refer to material here because this is directly related to structure. Concrete is not merely a concentration of abstractions, it is a concentration that mirrors the phenomena of interest in the concrete world. Alternatively if we were to implement our concrete conceptions we would also have a concrete system. Huw > Andy > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > > >> >> On 18 January 2012 00:55, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto: >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> This is the original "rising to the concrete," Huw: >> http://www.marxists.org/**archive/marx/works/1857/** >> grundrisse/ch01.htm#3<http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/grundrisse/ch01.htm#3> >> In middle of that paragraph beginning "It seems to be correct ...". >> >> Andy >> >> >> This seems to be perfectly in line with my earlier point, Andy. >> >> "It seems to be correct to begin with the real and the concrete, with the >> real precondition, thus to begin, in economics, with e.g. the population, >> which is the foundation and the subject of the entire social act of >> production. However, on closer examination this proves false." >> >> It is false to begin with the concrete and it is false that "the >> population" is concrete. >> >> "The population is an abstraction if I leave out, for example, the >> classes of which it is composed. These classes in turn are an empty phrase >> if I am not familiar with the elements on which they rest. E.g. wage >> labour, capital, etc. These latter in turn presuppose exchange, division of >> labour, prices, etc. For example, capital is nothing without wage labour, >> without value, money, price etc." >> >> The abstractions are refined and related. >> >> "Thus, if I were to begin with the population, this would be a chaotic >> conception [Vorstellung] of the whole, and I would then, by means of >> further determination, move analytically towards ever more simple concepts >> [Begriff], from the imagined concrete towards ever thinner abstractions >> until I had arrived at the simplest determinations." >> >> If we began with "the population" as the concrete (the imagined concrete) >> we would have a chaotic conception. >> >> "From there the journey would have to be retraced until I had finally >> arrived at the population again, but this time not as the chaotic >> conception of a whole, but as a rich totality of many determinations and >> relations." >> >> The journey would need to be retraced because scientific minds would >> realise that "ever more simple concepts" are abstractions of material >> phenomena. They would then make an abstract ascension towards a >> concentration of related abstractions that explained and predicted the >> concrete. The material relations. >> >> "The former is the path historically followed by economics at the time of >> its origins. The economists of the seventeenth century, e.g., always begin >> with the living whole, with population, nation, state, several states, >> etc.; but they always conclude by discovering through analysis a small >> number of determinant, abstract, general relations such as division of >> labour, money, value, etc. As soon as these individual moments had been >> more or less firmly established and abstracted, there began the economic >> systems, which ascended from the simple relations, such as labour, division >> of labour, need, exchange value, to the level of the state, exchange >> between nations and the world market. The latter is obviously the >> scientifically correct method. The concrete is concrete because it is the >> concentration of many determinations, hence unity of the diverse." >> >> The synthesis of many abstractions (the diverse) that approach >> (authentically explain) the complex dynamics of the concrete (the material). >> >> "It appears in the process of thinking, therefore, as a process of >> concentration, as a result, not as a point of departure, even though it is >> the point of departure in reality and hence also the point of departure for >> observation [Anschauung] and conception." >> >> Many patterns overlapped, overlayed and related -- a process of >> concentration (of perceiving many abstract relations in a concrete >> phenomena). >> >> The mental appreciation of the concrete is not the starting point for >> this process of appreciation (understanding). Yet in reality we begin our >> observation and conception from the less appreciated existence of the >> concrete phenomena, which we endeavour to understand, to appreciate its >> material relations. >> >> Huw >> >> >> >> > -- > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > ------------ > *Andy Blunden* > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857> > > ______________________________**____________ > _____ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> > __________________________________________ _____ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca